a bygone age

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davidh
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Re: a bygone age

Post by davidh »

Ha...Neil.....sailing IOR boats was something that you did, I think, without knowing any better! It didn't make it any more fun though!

But first....Max: I'll try and did out what I did on the development of early rating rules. The bottom line is that most of the UK racing 'stock' had a strong run of DNA that originated in the Pilot boats. A good hull shape was deemed to have the 'head of a cod, the tail of a mackerel'. Then, in 1851, the Schooner 'America' came to the Solent wit the specific intention of plundering the prize money, which of course they duly did - I'm pretty sure that you can get to see the hulls of America on line.

What you then get is the start of when changes in the rating rules (aimed at making boats more competitive) drove the shape of gentlemens racing yachts. However, it is the way of designers that in the search for speed, 'other' considerations would go by the wayside. Back in the 1860s, the 'new' rating rule saw beam being penalised, so boats became longer and narrower. I've a picture that I took of a 66ft boat that had a beam of just 10ft, but that was by no means extreme for the racing yachts. Boats became known as 'planks on edge' and the top Solent sailor, the Earl of Dunraven, who would later challenge for the Americas Cup with his two Valkyrie yachts (and get the reputation in the US media as the worlds most unsporting sportsman), would later describe the experience of sailing these boats as like 'being on a submarine'.

If you can get to the Club House at the Royal Northern and Clyde YC at Helensburgh, at the top of the stairs is a model of the boat that became the most extreme of all the plank on edge racing yachts - a 60ft hull with a beam that you'd normally find on a Wayfarer!. However, the seakeeping of these boats left something to be desired (like..lots to be desired) but when this yacht was lost in the Irish sea, with the loss of all hands, including the designer, the authorities acted by introducing a 'new' rating rule.

It would take yet another iteration of the rules before we started seeing boats that would look beautiful and would welcome the likes of GL Watson (at least here in the UK) who left us with a great legacy of boats with swooping overhangs. To get from there - to where we are today and the likes of the latest Volvo yachts and TP52s is a subject that you could spend your whole life trying to master!

Neil...Warbird, Wings....the Julian Everitt designed quarter tonner..... very evocative memories. As while back I did some quarter ton racing (the good news is that today they only race around the cans - and that was bad enough) sailing in a French Faroux design - we spent the event looking back at the weirdly shaped bow on the jack Knights boat 'Odd Job' - it's been superbly restored! Having been and 'tonked' up the French on their home waters I then got back to the Solent just in time to sail in the Contessa 32s and the 'compare and contrast' between the two sailing experiences is something that you'd have to have done to fully understand. In the Quarter Tonner, you're always aware of the need to drop down a headsail size and haul on the flattener - in the Contessa, another 5 knots means that the boat heels a tad more and you get a bit wetter!

Go back to sitting on the rail.....you have to be joking (even in 2014 quality gear) - unless it's Antigua Week!

D
David H
Max McCarthy
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Re: a bygone age

Post by Max McCarthy »

Hi All,

Many thanks for the information, and interesting to know about how waterline can be so drastically altered by the varying waterline length, when heeled.....

To be honest, that thought hadn't even occurred to me, so many thanks for pointing it out!

David: thanks for the rather detailed response about raters and their rules, and of course how this came to be altered. Also, nice to know a little bit about the schooner America....

I guess one of the interesting boats, to also take this idea to for racing was the Westward....owned by T. B. Davis from Jersey. Now, the unusual thing about this, is how I have come to know of this....you see, my grandmother, knew the daughters of T. B. Davis, and as you may be aware, the Westward was sunk, by the daughters, as they simply didn't have the funds to keep her, after Davis died. But, what not a lot of people (as far as I am aware) know, is that part of the wood of the boat was kept, so, when my grandmothers house was built (originally owned by the two sisters, who were daughters of Davis) they had a door made out of the wood from the Westward, this is now my grandmothers front door!

Since, a replica schooner has been built, to be a exact copy of the Westward, she is known as the Eleanora...

So, thanks David, and others, to now makes a lot more sense to me as to why these boats, had such big overhangs of the hull...

Cheers,

Max
AC 298 TimeWarp
Cherub 2627 - Sgt Murphy (nee Last Amber Dragon)
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Michael Brigg
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Re: a bygone age

Post by Michael Brigg »

While I am not big on success in keel boats I can add a note of experience of what makes a difference and although keeping the boat upright does make a difference in keel boats the way it is achieved is different, and for all sorts of other reasons may be less important in dinghies.

Two things really matter in dinghy. Power to weight ratio and Course made good. If you can keep your boat upright you will get more power from your rig, and going upwind you will make less leeway, but if that is done by carrying weight then in Uffa's words you run the risk of becoming a steam roller and you my lose out badly going downwind. So a boat design that allows you to use your weight to maximum effect with a flared gunwhale, or a trapeze or two, or the right height aspect and rig tensions will all help to determine your choice of dinghy on the basis of your weight, fitness and athleticism.

In a keelboat, crew weight becomes steadily less important with increasing displacement. "Living on the rail" does make a difference of a smallish but important percentage but is so easily done that everyone can do it and so makes little difference in most racing results. I feel it is more important as a means of keeping crew in an accessible place, uncluttered place, without getting in the way/crowding the cockpit. More importantly the fore-aft trim is not affected by weight in the ends of the boat. Sleeping on the rail is again a tactical decision. Is it a good idea to have an exhausted crew for the sake of allowing the skipper to believe he can bully them, or is this more about having all hands on deck to allow night sailing racing without needing to power down?

What hasn't been mentioned is the critical issues of navigational decisions and sail changes that win and lose many more offshore races.

Most racing keelboats will have a clearly worked out number of settings and windspeeds for when to change up or down, just like selecting which gear to be in at different speeds and gradients. Too much sail increases leeway and risks loss of control in gusts, not to mention ruination of a headsail. (Most amateur regatta series only allow a single suit of sails.) In contrast however too little sail while allowing a more accurate and predictable course made good, runs a risk of loss of drive into a head sea.

These factors can be critical when needing to calculate the lay line to a bouy 2-3 miles away. Too early and you have to sail longer in deep water against a foul tide, too late and you may overstand the bouy by several hundred yards.

What is fun in big boats is that athleticism gives way to experience of a good tactician and navigator, while boat speed is achieved by coordinated work between several players such as the Main trimmer and the Helm, or even just tacking well. You may have only 2-3 spinnaker hoists in a race, and 30seconds difference in the hoist might mean a few boat lengths but Compare this to maybe 100 tacks, each one of which can gain 2-3 boat lengths if well executed, Helm, winch grinders, winch dressers and foredeck hand must all work in a coordinated manner. Similarly a good headsail change, or well coordinated reefing may hardly stop the boat, but done badly, can cost hundreds of yards.

And finally concentration. A dinghy race is a matter of a few hours at most. A keelboat or offshore racer in working for at least 6-8hours, even days (and nights) and mental concentration is really critical. Sloppy sail trimming can lose and gain huge amounts in the later stages of a race, especially in lighter wind. This comes down to good leadership. and often good delegation.

Its like middle distance vs Marathon or Rally motoring vs Gocarts. Perhaps even the difference between "Going out" and Marriage! There is really very little similarity!
Michael Brigg
Max McCarthy
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Re: a bygone age

Post by Max McCarthy »

Michael,

Yes (having sailed in my first yacht race last summer) I would agree with you that there are more important differences than important similarities (although, of course they do share a very similar principle) a little like the idea, that a fruit fly, has (supposedly) 60% identical genetic information to a typical human, although in that 40% (of difference) there are a huge number of differences, as they tend to be the most important differences, i.e. the alleles which control that 40% of genes, are make a more substantial difference, than that of the 60% similarity....

So on principal they are similar, but as you say, so, so different.....

Also, thanks for the explanation on beam and heeling of a yacht....

Cheers,

Max
AC 298 TimeWarp
Cherub 2627 - Sgt Murphy (nee Last Amber Dragon)
Farr 3.7 (slowly progressing build)
National 12 3337
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