'Want to do' events

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Michael Brigg
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Michael Brigg »

The point I was trying to make, (and it helps in this respect to take a look at the report link) is that accidents often DON'T happen to idiots, (although they do occasionally cause them.)

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... sh-bay.pdf

It also contains some really scary pictures! :shock: )

They happen to people who are unlucky.

Unfortunately the pressure then to lay blame will often pick on the person that is least resourced to be able toprotect themselves.

Thus in the case outlined as an example, there were several factors that would not usually occur.

The usually predictable efficient "Big Cat" (Fast Ferry service) was late arriving.
The experienced race officer overlooked this fact. (It had never happened before on his watch)
The XOD class (Parkstone Y.C. is well known for the experience and competency of their fleet) as result were in the harbour entrance in high concentration.
The wind was light, and unusually from the North, placing the North side of the harbour entrance (where the boats correctly sailed to, to get out of the clearway,) in the lee of tall buildings and then the incident happened as result in an area that usually has plentiful wind to drive the yachts.
This coincided with the sailing of the Chain Ferry, which "went for gap" between boats, that disappeared when the wind dropped.
The tide was Ebbing at this particular time.
The Towline onto the XOD was attached (perhaps in excessive haste) to a tow point that exacerbated the heel on the boat. (And is also a heavy Long Keeled boat not a shallow draft dinghy)

And so on.

Luckily there was no serious injury, although the XOD was a total loss, but the case illustrates well how minor errors can coincide and develop into a major incident.

Nobody did anything that was utterly daft, but had there been a loss of life then who knows what might have developed out of this.

It was only fortune that made the difference between a tale worthy of Michael Green's Coarse sailing, and the subject of a public enquiry.


Which is why I would urge caution about being the instigator, or organiser of a large gathering of yachts, in anything other than "Standard Racing" format, or informal Rally. which are tried and tested in terms of public liability.
Michael Brigg
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Ed
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Ed »

grumble....mumble....grumble....

@michael Not saying you are wrong....In fact pretty sure you are most probably right....it's just ....well....I don't like it....not one bit. Don't like that world and don't really want to sail (or ride a bike) in it all that much either. No, that isn't right, I do want to sail and ride and row and swim and climb.....just not to those rules if I can help it.

grumble.....mumble....grumble....

I (like Peter) have also had Club rescue crews tell me I was 'irresponsible' for sailing outside their rescue area....and had a rescue crew get the hump because I wanted to take an hour to self-rescue myself back to the sailing club, when they wanted to tow me back in 5mins.

For me, part of the fun/challenge of sailing is to take responsibility for myself, my crew and my boat and not divulge that responsibility to others. I want to make my own decision about weather, conditions, trip, boat-safety and then do my damnedest to deal with those conditions to the best of my ability. For sure, I will sometimes make mistakes and have to 'fight' to get my shit together and get home, but far more often as many of you will know, I will sit out a race as I don't feel confident in the boat/conditions/personal sailing ability. And yes, there will be times when I will need to be rescued, but please as long as I am happy and safe, do let me try and get back first under my own steam.

grumble....mumble....grumble....

This post has been so damned hard to write.....I have written in at least 3 times, and deleted it as each time I read it back and could see someone read into the post, that I was an awful subversive, an arrogant fool, an irresponsible sailor, father and human, the Rachman of event organisers, prepared to put on events and then lure poor unsuspecting families sailing 4 up in swimming trunks on toppers to sail around the Eddystone in November with only a 3/4hp powered avon dinghy un-blown up in the boot of my car in Calstock for cover.

Maybe I am.....just don't want to prove it to all here :oops:

grumble....mumble....grumble....

And yet, if Peter, Rupert and I wanted to spend the day exploring the Tamar on a flood tide, with a few friends....and drop in a race or two, it really seems like a pretty rum situation if we are saying we are too scared to put on an event such as this, or that the risks are too high.

FWIW.....The Tideway Association, Weir QuaySC and Cargreen SC have all recently cruised up the Tamar beyond Calstock, with no apparent worries and in some cases without any rescue boat cover. The Cothele to Cawsand and River Yealm Passage race, both provide a long distance race with significant parts of the race outside of sheltered waters with 'limited-but adequate' rescue boat cover. But of course, what I might consider adequate and an inland sailor may think of as adequate might well be different.

grumble.....mumble.....grumble....

I don't know where this leaves this 'idea' of an event.....Hell, the last thing I need is all the stress of trying to put on another event, especially a cruise over a 12-15mile stretch of very tidal river with 50 year old dinghies. Much easier to just say. "Oh great idea, wouldn't it be fun....but we can't, just too dangerous of course...too much of a risk..."

Of course, it has occurred to me is that you @Michael might simply be playing a double-bluff; knowing that the one thing most likely to get me off my fat arse and put on an event again would be to tell me it 'can't' or 'shouldn't' be done...


deep in thought

eib
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Obscured by clouds
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Obscured by clouds »

Ed... could'nt agree more with your thoughts. FWIW if you decide to do a 'cruise in company' on the Tamar [or anywhere else for that matter] I'll do my best to be there.

And no, I'm not bothered about a 'lack' of safety cover; we keep an eye out for each other.
Tony



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Michael Brigg
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Michael Brigg »

Ed wrote:...I was an awful subversive, an arrogant fool, an irresponsible sailor, father and human, the Rachman of event organisers, prepared to put on events and then lure poor unsuspecting families sailing 4 up in swimming trunks on toppers to sail around the Eddystone in November with only a 3/4hp powered avon dinghy un-blown up in the boot of my car in Calstock for cover.
eib
One day this will be published in the Daily Mail.. but I like the event! Worthy of the Tough Mudder, or any of those other extreme challenges we see. :lol:

For personal challenges they don't come better than the Russians who are constantly featured on U-tube hanging one handed from the top of disused radio towers and the like.

There was a time in this country when extreme risk taking (such as Point to pointing and "riding to hounds") was encouraged as a means of maintaining the Right stuff in our genes of readiness for war but then again I would not want to seem to be going down the lines of Daily Mail and UKIPP jingoism, (and don't forget these same people are the first to jump on the blame train when things go wrong.

Scouting adventure is similarly watered down by regulation, in contrast to the lifestyle of the Chief Scout Bear Grylls

No Ed, I am not discouraging events, far from it and where I lived as a boy one of the neighbours regularly had a Boxing day sailing event where the emphasis was more to do with Whisky than with wind, and a great event it was too. Most of the participating boats probably had no insurance and more than few hadn't yet had the scheduled repairs done but were pulled out of store for the event.

Raids rallies and challenges are right up with the activities that I enjoy. (I would be the first to volunteer with you to another expedition to find the source of the Thames. :P )

I recall happy days sailing home in the dark in Chichester Harbour overloaded without lights after adolescent Beach BBQ's. I doubt if we were any more responsible than we belief "young people" would be today.

However life is lived far more these days in the public eye, and there are too often people in high office that seek to gain advantage by taking a stance. The world in that respect has indeed become a more dangerous place.

My take on this is to start with a private event and write about it later. A few friends rallying up the Tamar, may not quite turn into Uffa crossing the channel with a group of sea scouts, but this might encourage others to do likewise and that might encourage more active sailing of our craft which are often not suited for, or not catered for within club racing.
Michael Brigg
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by JimC »

Not the people in high office, who'd mostly love to be able to turn blind eyes because it's cheaper that way...
It's the damn press and opponents, who scream 'something must be done it's those fools in high office fault' at every opportunity...
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Obscured by clouds »

JimC wrote:Not the people in high office, who'd mostly love to be able to turn blind eyes because it's cheaper that way...
It's the damn press and opponents, who scream 'something must be done it's those fools in high office fault' at every opportunity...
.............and people who are happy to be deeply offended on your behalf, even if you might not be :)
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Rupert
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Rupert »

Well, I am deeply offended...


... oh, hang on a minute, thats not right.

I think it would be a wonderful idea to get together on the Tamar. If it can't be a cvrda event, but a group of friends meeting up for a cruise, then so be it. Any racing would be, I suspect, of the "bet I can beat you to the next bend" variety.

And surely the code is that if someone is in trouble, you stand by them and help. We are hardly in the middle of the southern ocean on the Tamar, so it doesn't take someone with the character of Pete Goss to ensure people are safe.
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by JimC »

Nothing wrong with mutual rescue at all of course, but a drawback, especially if people get tired in strong conditions, is that while safeguarding the crew presents no problems it is rather harder to safeguard the boat from another sailboat.
Michael Brigg
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Michael Brigg »

Just to show that I am not (or do not wish to be) an event party pooper, I would declare my own (And one that I hope is dear to Ed's heart as well...

"My "Want to do" event is "Round the Island" (of Wight of course) in a Sculling boat.

There is a nice example here of James Cracknell crossing the channel in a scull. (and this was in one of the calmer bits) which shows that it is perhaps a do-able challenge (especially if one waits for the right conditions.)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/76715 ... esity.html

The context of the article is also rather relevant to the issues in this thread as well. All about encouraging achievement and risk taking.
Michael Brigg
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Spiderman »

The incident in Poole harbour described by Michael serves as a timely reminder that even in what appear to be "safe" conditions circumstances can conspire to create a dangerous situation.
That said, I wholeheartedly agree with Ed's views regarding some kind of passage sail and would hate to think that one unfortunate incident would make us all so risk averse that it seems better to do nothing rather than accept a small degree of risk assocoated with such a venture.
I can cite several examples of people who are more than happy to hide behind "Health and Safety" rules as it saves them having to assess and mitigate the risks involved in taking some action. Don't worry I'm not suggesting that applies to anyone here.
If the combined sailing experience, not to mention skill and knowledge, of the majority of those contributing to this forum can't put together and safely conduct something like this then the rule makers and those in high office have won already!
Anyway, as you have probably gathered already I would definitely be up for an event such as those already suggested, however, I don't think that I'd be doing it in a Moth...
I do think that some kind of support/ safety boat would be a good idea although I can see it being used in cases of gear failure or for a tow if the wind dies more than it would be for pure rescue purposes.
Go for it Ed.

Regards

Ian
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Pat »

I'd heard about that incident and having raced from Parkstone and gone out through the entrance this year, I can confirm that they are rather careful about it. A rescue boat with a big chequered flag is stationed at the entrance and you cannot sail between it and the ferry and can only pas through if the flag is flying. Dinghies without engines tend to be raced wholly inside or wholly outside the harbour so you do not enter or exit whilst racing though I've previously done a downwind start on a cruiser, kite up, and straight out of the harbour.
However you can go round the islands without getting into the entrance, which we've done several times in various boats, though usually with a few horses power.
We've a 3.2 metre Zodiac with 4hp engine which we've used on Poole Harbour and could be an assistance boat for a cruise. Also a Wayfarer or two or similar with outboards would be good companions and we'd be up for a Tamar tour with friends.
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by SoggyBadger »

It's just common sense really. Choose a general purpose dinghy in sound, seaworthy condition. Make sure that the sails can be easily dropped on the water. The main should really be reef-able too. The boat should have a secondary means of propulsion. So either an outboard or oars. If oars then make sure they are of a decent length and that the rowlocks are metal not plastic and are secured to the boat by lanyards. I certainly won't be letting some freak racing incident colour my judgement about when and where I sail my boat.
Best wishes


SB
Rupert
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Rupert »

Many of our boats don't have those options, SB. I'd love to bring the Firefly to an event like this, but paddles are about as good as it gets for a second means of propulsion, and reefing is only really viable when on shore/moored. We'd also bring the Mirror, which is far more sensible, unless sailing against the tide...
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by Michael4 »

Worth mentioning that in in a fleet of Tideways I would expect all to have oars and some have a little outboard tucked away somewhere. Obviously helps with peace of mind on longer or more demanding jaunts.

Please no comments about parasols, deck chairs, picnic hampers etc etc :D
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Re: 'Want to do' events

Post by SoggyBadger »

Rupert wrote:Many of our boats don't have those options, SB. I'd love to bring the Firefly to an event like this, but paddles are about as good as it gets for a second means of propulsion, and reefing is only really viable when on shore/moored. We'd also bring the Mirror, which is far more sensible, unless sailing against the tide...
I can understand why you'd want to use your Firefly Rupert. Would its transom be strong enough to take a small electric outboard? For a trip up the Tamar you'd be going up on the flood and returning on the ebb (+the river current) so you wouldn't need that much power to get back to the launch site, just enough to give steerage really. I think shore-side reefing would be fine. On my boat I look upon reefing as an aid in getting back if conditions unexpectedly deteriorate. I wouldn't set out on a cruise in conditions where I'd be reefed from the off or where I knew I'd have to reef at some point.

I'd definitely like to do a trip like that.
Best wishes


SB
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