Agamemnon - i14 869

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Nessa
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Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Nessa » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:08 am

This is the boat I got from ebay - probably paid too much, but hey, it looks great!

Here is one of my less minor problems in the restoration process:

Image

With the boat I got given an enormous hatch cover which I think the previous owner was going to use to plug this gap before he gave up on the whole project. I am not so keen on that idea - so I'm thinking to put a marine ply panel over the hole with a standard hatch cut in to it.

Any suggestions?

Sorry the pic is so big - I will attempt to work out how to resize. other pics can be seen in my photobucket at:

http://s286.photobucket.com/albums/ll11 ... Agamemnon/
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Rupert » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:32 am

Anyone recognise the traveller trophy style mast support!
The easiest way would be to cut the hole to a reasonable shape, put a thin piece of ply behind it, then put a piece in to fill the gap. it is easiest to cut the hatch holes before you fit the ply, though you will have to be careful lining up the backing piece. The alternative would be to make the hole even and then put angles on it, make a patch with equal angles and glue it on. Takes more accurate cutting, though.
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Nessa » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:31 pm

There are some strange shapes of ply supplied with the boat to go with that mast support - are there issues there I need to be aware of? I have no knowledge of the history of 14s whatsoever. My restoration experience is limited to salvaging phantom k88 (alas a mere stripling, having been built c1974)
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by roger » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:55 pm

Rupert wrote:Anyone recognise the traveller trophy style mast support!
Nessa, Rupert is referring to the travellers trophy for the cvrda which is identical to your mast support. It is a trophy which for some reason the wives wont allow on the mantlepeice. Cant understand why :shock:
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Rupert » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:50 pm

It is a lovely trophy - if your mast support is rotten, I'm sure that the cvrda would donate it to you in exchange for a smaller one! It has always looked like it needed a boat built around it...I'm sure Ed can tell us which 14 he knicked it off!
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Ed
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Ed » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:29 pm

It came from a Souters 14.

Fraid I don't know what number though, I bought in a boat jumble, already removed from the boat.

cheers

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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Ancient Geek » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:48 pm

Agamemnon was built by Souters for the late John Prentice (She features in one of Keith Shackletons excellent tales of cracker barrel wisdom "Shakewell Afloat", by K Humphrey Shakewell! - a truly excellent book, reminding us of gentler days.) the foot of the mast shows that she was fitted with a mast jack -a screw jack under the mast for tensioning the rigging unique to 14's and already somewhat dated by the time Agamemnon was built-.
She was/IS I think a Proctor Mk 6.
The Mast gate support was typical of all 14's at the time allowing the crew to get forward to do crew like things withount having to climb over a strut athartships. Perhaps typical of Mike Souter to when laying the outer veneer fore and aft to use contrasting veneers to show off their craftsmanship.

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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Nessa » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:06 pm

How did the mast jack work? Does that mean the mast went up and down?

Fantastic info Ancient Geek. She is a beautiful boat - the veneer inside the boat is also carefully laid. I am very nervous of messing it up. Any more history very gratefully received. I will endeavour to get more pics posted.
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by ACB » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:14 pm

The hole was no doubt cut to allow a buoyancy bag to be inserted when the tank was no longer air tight.

I agree with Rupert's prescription, but would like to go a little further:

You want to have a repair which is up to the standards of the rest of the boat in terms of appearance, weight and strength.

Start by cutting back the hole to a regular shape - but avoid a rectangle because the corners are stress raisers. An octagon is ideal.

Next, chamfer the edges to a scarph gradient. Use a sharp block plane (with a freshly sharpened iron in it!) You want 1:8 for 100% strength but you can get away with 1:6 for this.

Cut a backing piece of ply which is bigger than the hole but fits through it. Cut the middle out of this leaving about a couple of inches - one inch overlap of the hole and one inch inside the hole.

Do a dry run:

Using a couple of strongbacks (any bit of deal plank, wrapped in parcel tape to stop the glue sticking) and Spanish windlasses to the thwart to pull them up, the backing piece should be pulled up against the edges of the hole all round.

All OK - glue it, but wipe any excess epoxy off the faying surfaces where your final patch will go.

Make up a patch, chamfer the edges to match, cut the hatch hole in it, bevel the edges and using a strongback inside the tank that you can remove via the hatch hole, held in place with more brown parcel tape, and a couple of strongbacks outside the hatch clamped to it , do another dry run.

All OK - glue it. When the epoxy has gone off, dismantle the strongbacks and clamps and Robert is your mother's brother.

You should now have an all but invisible mend, or if it is visible it is up to the standard of the rest of the boat.

You can do it the other way round, cutting the chamfer facing into the tank, eliminating the backing piece and strutting down to hold it in place, but it's very difficult to get a perfect looking result this way

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Nessa
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Nessa » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:01 pm

That sounds like just the job ACB, but it is well beyond my woodworking capability. How much - roughly - would something like that cost to get professionally done, and where would the panel recommend I go for it?

With regard to the epoxy, need I take off all of it, or can I leave the good bits and patch in the raw bits?

Not that I am already fed up of scraping or any thing....
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Garry R » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:25 pm

Sorry to say but patching epoxy in will looks like the dog's breakfast rather than the other less polite canine epithet!! The other thing is that you never know quite how well the epoxy you leave is sticking to the timber. Do it right first time and it will look great.
On the previous topic of the tank repair, is there any way that you can tell how good the colour match of the new and old ply will be? It seems to me that there are two issues here. One is to make a neat job of the hole filling in which case that's down to woodworking skills as described above and the other is the luck of getting the colour match. I wonder if it is simpler cosmetically to remove the bulkhead and replace with one piece of timber and recut the hatch holes? Just a thought.

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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Nessa » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:41 pm

I knew that would be the answer re the patching. :( I will do it properly then, but as we are moving house at the moment it may well take quite some time.

I did think about replacing the entire bulkhead for exactly the reason you describe. One thing I think I need to know is, what are the protocols with such a project? Should I be aiming to get back to the original as much as possible - and therefore launch the spinny from a bucket, or can I go up to date and fit spinnaker bags? This applies across the whole range of fittings I need to put in (ie everything)

I don't want to dress mutton as lamb, but neither do I want to make the boat difficult to sail by deliberately avoiding new gear that might help me. Is there a 'done thing' here?
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:50 pm

The done thing is to get the boat to a condition where you can enjoy sailing her. Nothing is better for boat preservation.Concourse condition can lead to over long restoration and loss of momentum and worse of all a lack of money for the more important process of sailing.

The people I am always jealous of are the ones who are out there sailing. Doesn't matter if it's a Laser or a heritage dinghy (like yours and she is I must say quite stunning) the point is they are out there doing it. Avoid irreversible decisions unless essential and better do nothing than do it wrong. A temporary fix is fine if it doesnt do damage and allows you to get to know your boat better and advance the more important issue of making her a part of your family.
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by roger » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:38 am

Nessa, Micheal is right. Get the boat into a condition where you can enjoy sailing her. I have two boats of the same age, one is in totally original condition and one has been modified throughout her long life. The first one I have to consider carefully when and in what conditions she is sailed(though she loved the strong winds at Netley) and the other one we will take her out in most conditions and push her pretty hard(she was built to race,lets race her) and consequently she has some kind of repair needing after each event. :D .
I suppose what I am saying is the same as above. Do the maintainance you are happy with and enjoy her.
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Rupert » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:42 am

I like the phrase "Heritage dinghy", Michael!
Agree there is no right or wrong in boat restoration - Ed set up the cvrda to be as far as it is possible to get from those car rallys where you get some man in a cloth cap marking your pride and joy down because the filler cap is from 1937, not 1936. I'm someone who tends towards modernizing boats to enable them to race against newer ones, so I go towards putting the fittings on that help me do that. Chris on Merlin No 6 has tried as far as possible to keep her how she was when built, as has Roger with his latest Hornet. They all serve a purpose (as much as old boats can!) and none are on a bonfire, so we can all be proud of our efforts!
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