Agamemnon - i14 869

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ACB
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by ACB »

Hope Nessa does not mind my butting in on this thread?

What a nice bunch of people you are!

I was very interested, when Nessa asked this, because I have been thinking about my newly acquired Albacore, veering between "drastic modernisation" and "restoration". I think on the basis of what is written here, which makes complete sense, I will take the economical course and go down the middle - keep the centre mainsheet and such, but retaining the high transom so that someone could refit an aft mainsheet, whilst keeping the original deck layout (low foredeck with breakwater) and so on. One factor in this is that the hull is in excellent condition - if it were poor there would be nothing to lose by a drastic modernisation.

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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Ed »

Agree with all above.

Front Bulkhead - either do a quick patch job and don't worry about it being too beautiful. By the way in my humble opinion, a scarfed octagon patch is way over the top, unless you want to impress with your workmanship. A square patch with only as much scarf as it needs to get good clean join, will be fine as long as there is a backing piece along all the joins. I would be more worried about trying to find a good colour match in the ply. This bulkhead does not get any 'twisting' on it, so I can't imagine that there is much stress on it. or.....if you want to do it well - replace the whole bulkhead.....but I wouldn't do this. If you replace the bulkhead, you will have to replace the top as well as the top ply overlaps the vertical bit. Can you do this without damage to other bits - tank-tops etc....maybe....but I wouldn't do it. A nice easy square patch will be just fine.

Mast-jacks were not only used by I14s. They were plenty of other big boats that used them, including Jollyboats for that matter. If you want to go down this route (wouldn't myself), I may well have the necessary bits to make up a mast-jack pulled off old Jollyboats.

In terms of class-ethos. We have always been and will hopefully remain pretty open about this, we just encourage old boats to be out on the water rather than in a shed, or worse still under a tarp in a field.

In my opinion, it depends on the boat. Some 'should' really remain pretty much as they were originally sailed, whilst others I think are best modernised.

My personal opinion is that I choose boats that enable me to be closer to Rupert's approach rather than Chris's.

I try and keep the 'feeling' of how the boat originally was, whilst replacing anything that can be improved because they are now 'better'. So I would take out tube-bailers and replace with elvestroms, but most probably not put in transom flaps if they were not there originally.

It always seems like a slippy-slope to me. If you were totally original, it would mean on many boats replacing all the stainless steel....including the stays/halyards. But galvinised stays were a complete pain. greesed halyards in winches were horrible. I wouldn't want to go back to non-stainless. Then what about nylon/plastic sheets? Old boats would of all used cotton sheets. Have you tried these? Truly horrible! I admire those that sail with old sets of cotton.....but it just does not really light my fire. Sails have always seemed to me to be pretty ephemeral and an old set of sails looks to me like an old set of sails....cotton or not.

So as has been said, the important thing is to get out there and finish the boat and sail it.

The other thing to point out in all this (especially to you with an Int14) is that there is NO financial sense in re-building an old dinghy. You will not get your money back for the cost of materials alone, let alone the time. If you just want to sail a classic dinghy, you are much better off buying one already renovated. Don't try to do it yourself, unless you want the experience of the process of doing it up. The re-build always costs way more than the end value of the boat.

My last 14 cost me a small fortune to re-build and in the end I was glad to sell it for under half my financial investment.

What I am trying to say is....Do what you want! But just enjoy the re-build process and get it on the water and go sailing!!

Preferably with us!!

Look forwards to seeing you on the water.

Have you made touch with the Classic 14 crowd yet? They will provide lots of help

cheers

eib
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Michael Brigg »

Nessa Said:
I don't want to dress mutton as lamb, but neither do I want to make the boat difficult to sail
Just not possible. Agamemnon was a Mighty warrior who led the Greeks to War. A Lion could never be mutton. Penultimate i14s were made at the time when these boats were the very pinnacle of dinghy racing. You have only to look at the fabulously powerful lines of this boat to know this and I suspect that your decision to buy was instantaneous.

Make the boat more difficult to sail?!?!?!

How??? :shock:

This boat was rigged originally as a single trapeze dinghy with most of the rig in the mainsail and with a spinaker of almost unlimited capacity. Legend tells us that Agamemnon was quite a bastard and I suspect the boat is too, on the water that is.

They were traditionally were sailed at my club by 14stone middle aged bankers (the only guys who could afford them) with a long sailing experience although I can recall the worries I had as rescue boat that the helm might have a heart attack trying to get back upright after a capsize.
How much - roughly - would something like that cost to get professionally done, and where would the panel recommend I go for it?
Clearly Nessa you want to keep this Mighty prince alive so I presume your name is not shortened from Clytemnestra! She was Agamemnons wife and when he returned from the Trojan war with his concubine Cassandra. she murderered them both...by chopping them up with an Axe!

Image

Well he kind of deserved it; he killed her first husband, sacrificed her daughter to ensure success of his mission, went to war for 10 years to rescue her (prettier) sister in law and came back with a younger mistress. :roll:

Assuming you are not SWMBO you might be well advised not to look up any previous owners!

The cost of a professional boat builder repair is not that great if you do the preparatory work. I have no time or skill to do either but the sanding and stripping of my firefly cost 2-3 times as much as repairs which included a new thwart, transom, side bench, foredeck and side deck. My guess is that your bulkhead repair could be negotiated with a cabinet maker or boatman to be done for somewhere between £100-200
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Nessa »

The scraping and scratching is actually going quite well now I have discovered the miracle powers of the heat gun (wish I'd known this when doing my phantom). Anyway, to keep my self motivated whilst scraping away I try to envisage the fitting out (the exciting part!). Judging by the holes and miscellaneous bits and bobs supplied, the boat must have been fitted with a mainsheet traveller track. Unfortunately the track itself is missing. Should I aim to replace the track, or could I go for something like a hoop, strop or any other form of traveller arrangement? I am also considering the 505/470 split sheet arrangement.

Any opinions welcome!
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by chris »

Since my name has been taken in vain a couple of times on this thread (all in the best possible taste, of course) I'll add a comment. So conservation, restoration or renovation?
My three current boats (merlin 6, merlin 507, albacore 1576) each have their own phlosophy I suppose.
Merlin 6, Iska, demands preservation rather than any modernisation. She is in more original condition than merlin 2 in the MAritime Museum. So any repairs are done with that in mind but she has to be safe enough to sail. I have no intention of modernising anything (but I'm not taking off the stainless wire to put galvanised on likewise sheets) Since she only has ever had her cotton sails I'm not going to buy modern sails. However I have just acquired an ancient terrylene main that is the same shape and will use that if the weather dictates that cotton is not such a clever idea. So I will keep her just as she is now, rub her down and add a couple coats of fresh varnish from time to time and do very careful repairs as needed.

507 I bought this as a wreck for 20 quid some 16/17 years ago. The work I did included redecking but I did a cheap job ( cheap ply and done quickly) because I wanted to get her on the water. We have alsways enjoyed this boat and some years ago I re-redecked her doing a much better job and went back to the original rounded side decks. She is so much more comfortable and looks better so we enjoy her even more - she is also stiffer now. Uptil now ewe have always sailed her with ali mast and modern sails. I could go carbon and kevlar but can't aford it so wont. but for everyday club racing she's fine. A couple of years ago I was given a wooden mast and cotton sails from a merlin of the same age. Although I don't use the cotton sails regularly at the club I have recently left the wooden mast on and she seems to like it. It's cured the turning-turtle syndrome and is actually 1/2 a kilo lighter than than old ali mast and has a lower c of g. so feels very nice to sail with modern sails( but I would worry about using an old wooden mast in strong winds as I know from bitter experience) . Basically I shal keep two rigs. Yes she could be updated much more but she's not 100% original either but we like her just as she is. In a CVRDA event I may or may not use wood and cotton depending on things.

The Albacore had some modernisation already and my aim was first to resstore her to the condition she was in before neglect set in but I don't see that boat as a museum piece at all. I added a few reinfocing struts here and there so that I can add mast struts or rams etc if I want at a later date. I also kept the centre mainsheet etc. Being one design (well nearly) and not being in very original condition to start with I'm quite happy to keep this boat reasonably up to date.

So my attitude is (as paople have said above) different boats demand different appoaches.
However I have found that in the Merlin Vintage wing things are becoming polarised into two camps. Very modernised boats or basically original boats. there are several others who don't want to modernise and I feel it is at the point where there is no point taking a boat like Iska to a vintage merlin event because you are one you own all the time and I don't think that is right, but I am certainly not going to tell people not to modernise.
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by roger »

Nessa wrote: Judging by the holes and miscellaneous bits and bobs supplied, the boat must have been fitted with a mainsheet traveller track. Unfortunately the track itself is missing. Should I aim to replace the track, or could I go for something like a hoop, strop or any other form of traveller arrangement? I am also considering the 505/470 split sheet arrangement.

Any opinions welcome!
Nessa, Good to hear its going well. I personally dont like mainsheet travellers,they always seem to be in the way going upwind especially inthe light stuff. So far I have gone for a strop but have to admit the split tail main is an attractive option.
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Ed »

Think I would avoid a hoop.

I think they look 'ok' on Merlins, but pretty crap on everything else.

they only work well if boat is truly stable and stiff which is unlikely on an oldish 14 like this.

traveller is best I suspect, but if you don't want to do that then split rear-sheet is most probably way to go

cheers

eib
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by davidh »

I think the best way to look at this, is to start with the question of how the options work on the rig and hull.

Centre mainsheet is the easiest (probably!!0 to sail with but..... you need a far more powerful kicker. The 14 has a huge mainsail area with a lot of roach, which will fall off alarmingly if the tension is not kept firmly on.
Lots of kicker tension ends up being transmitted into the hull, fine on a nice stiff boat but in an old lady, maybe mnot the best way to go.

With Transom sheeting, you do get some help in keeping the leech tensioned up, without a huge amount of strain being loaded onto the hull..... you can always then bring the mainsheet tail back along the boom and down to a block and cleat and get the best of both worlds.

Given that particular technical problem to solve, that is how I'd approach it.

D
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Nessa »

Well, I'm thinking either the split tail or the transom sheeting (laser style), as David described. I'm not over thrilled by transom sheeting in case I forget which boat I'm in and whip the tiller round the back......then again, the till shouldn't be that long should it!

I am concerned about the kicker. The present arrangement (or at least the bits of it that I have) appears to be the sort where you hook it into the boom and then it has a V jammer after a three to one, all adjusted by the crew. Having just measured the sails and found the main to be only fractionally smaller than my contender main I can see that this might just be inadequate! Clearly the boom (the original proctor) won't be up to much stress, nor will the mast (again the original proctor), but how can I gauge what it will take?
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by davidh »

Nessa,

remember- transom sheeting does mean a less powerful kicker......

another reason to go down that route

D
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Nessa »

We have measured the genoa at 8 sq metres, the main (very long and thin) at 8.5 sq metres, and the spinnaker at 14 sq metres. :shock:
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Ed »

Just how thin is the main?

If it is too high aspect-ratio....

then the foot will be too short and boom will normally be short as well to easily use transom sheeting.

just a thought.

Normally i14 mains are not that high a/r ....just tall and wide....in other words big.

cheers

eib
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by Nessa »

The main has a 6m luff, a 7m leech and a 2.7m foot.
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by alan williams »

Hi
Years ago when Pat Briton and I rebuilt up graded Audacity in 74 we went the full works Centremain 18-1 kicker, two sets of rachet blocks on genoa, rachets on spinnaker and centermain, 2 Elvstrom maxi bailers, a spinnaker shute, new Musto sails, Proctor beta minus mast, boom ,alloy rudderstock new foils.etc The boat became so much easier to sail and considerably faster due to haveing decent sail controls and was reasonably competitive for a 9 year old fourteen. Enjoy your boat but do not spend vast amounts of money on her. The Centremain with a very powerfull kicker is probably the best modification you can make also check for any sideways movement of the centre board case this was always weakness in the wooden 14. if found put in some extra knees.
Cheers Al Finn 424, Shark 41 ex part owner of Audacity int14 732
Last edited by alan williams on Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Agamemnon - i14 869

Post by ACB »

I'm probably missing something - why would the kicker tension be transmitted to the hull? Would it not be contained in the mast, both the tension on the heel and thye thrust at the gooseneck, and not affect the hull at all?

(I've just been sticking a Firefly back together - she had developed a certain banana-like quality as forty-five years of aft mainsheet graunched in had helped the gunwales and tank fronts to de-laminate - and she has a tiny mainsail compared to Agamemnon!)
Last edited by ACB on Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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