Otter or.........not a.........

an area to discuss dinghy developments
Michael Brigg
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by Michael Brigg »

As we seem to agree this is a "Concept" (12) dinghy, I think probably quite alot of dinghy designs are ill conceived!
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Some just fullfill a passing need...

...and others,
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Are just plain wrong. :? Even when in Immaculate condition.

Going back again David to revisit your chart of boat ancestry, perhaps we should remember what happened to Romulus and Remus,after they were left to die on a mountainside and consider what could become of a design if nutured appropriately.(Although I'll admit this Notta Notta needs something of Jordanian proportion to make it sexy!) :shock:

Darwinian selection has produced many surprises, and there are many more examples of success following abandonment at birth or similar, including Superman, Moses, and Romulus, and other less successful examples that nevertheless ultimately fullfilled their destiny, including Luke Skywalker and Oedipus Rex.

I challenge your jounalistic skills to give us some similarly extraordinary dinghies?! :lol: :lol:
Michael Brigg
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Ancient Geek
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by Ancient Geek »

Not fogetting Jack worthing or are we being too Ernest?
Simples.
JimC
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by JimC »

Ancient Geek wrote:...The Tornado Catamaran,... had short Olympic career
What, 1976 to 2008? An awful lof of classes have had much shorter Olympic Careers!
davidh
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by davidh »

Good point Jim...but I can think of no other olympic class that has so connived at it's own downfall as the Tornado.



Okay Michael...are you looking for boats of dubious parentage that HAVE survived being left out for a touch of Mussorgsky - or those that were cherished and loved from birth yet never made it to their first ?

I'm kicking myself right now as I found another proven connection between the designers of different generations just the other day and failed to make a note of it..... will have to keep trying to dig through the memory banks. Sadly at present short term recall has taken a bit of a knock back - I've been dealing with other far more important issues for the last month or so, hence missing Shearwater and not being around much on line.


I hope to be fully back soon though and will return to the fray with enthusiasum!

D
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Rupert
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by Rupert »

The boat bow section is 1/2 of rather a neat idea, and amazing that it will float without its other 1/2! Anyone else remember the folding GP 14 that came up on ebay a year or so ago? That one is an excellent case of Darwin at work...
Rupert
DavidC
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by DavidC »

The problem the Tornado has is that it is too good a boat for a cheapskate event such as the Olympics.

Having sailed many cats, it is still one of the finest boats you could ever sail. It was good under its original rig and superb with the new one. The rig change was at the behest of ISAF to "stay" in the Olympics and was not agreed by the a lot of the class at the time, although I suspect most now see the benefit. Having the multihulls thrown out of the Olympics was nothing to do with the Tornado being the boat although some tried to blame its expense. It was entirely self serving politics by medal seeking countries. Don't forget, the Olympics are nothing to do with sport.

There was a lot of talk about the Tornado being too expensive and not allowing new countries etc etc, but no one ever actually had the courage to look closely at the figures. Yes a now boat was expensive, but boy do they last. You could easily expect a boat to be competitive for over 8 years - that's 2 Olympic cycles. Even now when people thoguht that there was a chance for cats to get the 11th medal it was the Tornado that was nominated. Work out how many 470's or Lasers you go through in that time. When John and Ian won the Silver in the 470 class they had 7 470 hulls on the go and reckoned that they needed a new hull every 6-8 months. As for Lasers, you need a new sail every regatta and the top guys buy them in bulk to try and get the shapes they want. Yes I know the boat is supplied at the games but you still have to get there and that means buying your own boat.

The Tornado is a wonderful boat and was not an expensive boat to campaign. the knee jerk reaction by the class to try and make it a cheap one design will do them no good. It has always been an Aston Martin not a Ford Escort. :D
alan williams
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by alan williams »

Hi Dave
Totally agree with all statements on Tornado. Once owned a now classic Tornado when I lived in Germany a beautiful boat to sail powerful yet relatively forgiving and a real speed machine. The real reason I feel the Tornado was chucked out was the fact the the Americans have not done well in them for years. The introduction of womens match racing is solely to get the Americans a gold medal ( match racing being a big thing in American Colleges and Universities),. I also felt that the re-inroductionof the Star was for the same reason. How can the sight of two slow keel boats compare with the thrill and excitment of a Multihull. I have posted elseware that the only thing that could attract an increase in viewers from the general public would be if the ladies sailed naked. I a wait replies with interest. I'm not being sexist just stating a fact.
Cheers Al
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by Ancient Geek »

Alan, You have clearly never raced a Star - The "Dry Fly" of sailing - along with the International Canoe quite simply the most difficult boat to sail, the medal race in Quindango was a justification for keeping it in the Olympics alone the places changing constantly - the technical aspects of the huge fragile rig - as keelboats go it's not that slow either. It is hugely popular almost everywhere but the UK even here there is a fleet at Wroxham that puts more boats on the water most summer weekends than quite a few dinghy open meetings, raced at club level it is an undemanding boat too.
Speed per se is not what make a good sail racer.
Simples.
alan williams
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by alan williams »

Hi AG
I have nothing against the Star which I agree is a very technical boat to sail, but the motives behind its reselection, the American lobby. I have heard that the class lined up for the chop was the mens 470 but some last minute lobbying saved it from being dropped.
Cheers Al
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jon711
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by jon711 »

Ancient Geek wrote:Alan, You have clearly never raced a Star - The "Dry Fly" of sailing - along with the International Canoe quite simply the most difficult boat to sail, the medal race in Quindango was a justification for keeping it in the Olympics alone the places changing constantly - the technical aspects of the huge fragile rig - as keelboats go it's not that slow either. It is hugely popular almost everywhere but the UK even here there is a fleet at Wroxham that puts more boats on the water most summer weekends than quite a few dinghy open meetings, raced at club level it is an undemanding boat too.
Speed per se is not what make a good sail racer.
Irronically we did have a starts for Stars at Oulton Week for (about) the last ten years - at thier request.. The biggest turnout we ever had was three boats. For the last two years, none turned up.... It look's like they will be dropped for next year.. A real shame as they did look such lovely boats when all powered up. I think the biggest problem the crews (teams) had was trying to sail different styles of classes in an already tight schedule (They would rather sail Finns and River Cruisers!). I think the CVRDA may have evicted the Stars from the Oulton Week schedule!
JimC
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by JimC »

alan williams wrote:I have heard that the class lined up for the chop was the mens 470 but some last minute lobbying saved it from being dropped.
The fact that about four times as many countries have 470 fleets as Tornado (or any other high end racing Cat like F18) fleets may well have been a significant factor. Glorious as the high performance multihulls are, it must be tricky to justify voting for them when none of the folks back home you represent sail anything remotely similar.
Michael Brigg
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by Michael Brigg »

We've come rather a long way from the Notta notta here but...

Don't get me wrong, the Tornado is in its way a manificent boat, and the arguments for Cats in the Olympic regatta are fully valid. Multihull racing is certainly a discipline in sailing that should have been kept. As a world wide concept I suspect there are many more multihull sailors in the third world than there are sports dinghy sailors and how many countries have an established match racing circuit?

However we now know that The Olympics is a media circus. Sailing has to be sexy, with an opportunity for instant interviews with the vanquished loser in each round and opportunity for that other lotus leaf in the televisual diet, Controversy!

The coverage of a Tornado race will watch one tornado going fast. :shock: Then there is another tornado, going fast. :) And another, going...Fast. :? Seen one seen 'em all. A fast moving fleet split into long legs, doing a minimal number of tacks as that is when they go slowly.

If the tornado wants to become televisual, they need to perform on a lake like Shearwater. :P

The people who should now be watching their backs are the Americas Cup boys. The Current AC races have perhaps one exciting event per race. In sports boats at top level there is likely to be non stop action, alot more manouvering and a great deal less predictability, and everyone will realise just how much of a rip off the america's cup is.

I personally think some good aggressive match racing in genuinely matched identical boats will be real fun to watch, especially if a good commentator with good knowledge of the rules (and a way of explaining quickly confidentally and correctly why rules and penalties are being applied) can be found. (A real challenge that one)

Furthermore the cameras will be trained continuously on just Two boats for the whole race. How much revenue will there be to be made from selling the advertising space?

Alot more than a scattered fleet of drag racers. :cry:
Michael Brigg
alan williams
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by alan williams »

Hi Micheal
The sight of two lead mines slugging it out will not appeal to the general public who are looking for thrills and spills. After the last Olympics I held a survey among the students at the University that I know are sailors,. They all thought that the only really good events were the Finns tight aggressive sailing, the Tornado fast a boat strive towards, and the 49er's due to the numerous capsizes etc in their final race. These are young people who already sail and know whats going on, not joe public who hasn't a clue and is not that interested. SAiling needs the fast visually more exciting classes. DaveC has already stated that the cost of running a 470 campaign is way above that of campaining a Tornado Jim so cost is not an issue and in most counrties it,s state supported Lottery sports scholarships, military etc.. As mentioned by Dougal the Olympics are no longer about sportsmanship and skill but about crowing as to who is the" best nation in the world". With the result that some countries have the win at any cost approach hence the big increase in doping cheats in the track and field events, weight lifting and cycling for example.
Cheers Al
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by Ancient Geek »

Since we've done a 720 more like a 1500!

Yacht Racing - hopefully like all sport - sadly not - is first and foremost for the competitors and I for one am gratefull to the officials who are in the main volunteers who make it possible. It should not be but is about all that Michael writes so analytically about.
Having been priviledged to watch the most famous match race of all (Late September 1983 - off Newport RI - Bertrand V Connors - ) I can atest it can be exciting to watch, but mainly any form of yacht racing is mainly like watching grass grow. I think also that anything that encourages the professional foul is not good, nor am in favour of any penalty but DSQ or RTD. Sin bins have not made Rugby Football any better to watch - the sight of a Frenchman leaving the field does!
I know I am in this respect old fashioned maybe its this hankering for gentler but equally competative days that - in part - attracts me to the CVRDA and its ethos.
Was I alone _(Whilst being absolutely delighted that my one of my crews sons won the Gold!) that it was a demolition derby in a very cranky boat for the medal race.
When I was lad a capsize whilst recoverable was something to be ashamed of not be the cover picture of a magazine.
Ladies and Gentlemen of the UK your sport is in danger of extinction or at least reduction to very little relavence.
Simples.
Michael Brigg
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Re: Otter or.........not a.........

Post by Michael Brigg »

Alan Williams said:-
The sight of two lead mines slugging it out will not appeal to the general public who are looking for thrills and spills.
Have to disagree there Alan. All you have to do is get the presentation right.

There is an episode of that wonderful Space pastiche "Red Dwarf" in which Kryten, the robotic Manservant advises his fellow crew members on how to persuade Lister, the human slob, to eat a space-cockroach for dinner. There being no other food on board, without this diet Lister (as is the usual plot line) faces certain death.

Image

The secret, says Kryten is to get the presentation right, and serves the gruesome meal with a beautifully prepared fresh green salad on the side thereby showing his subtle appreciation of Human psychology.

Lister, the meat eating lager lout tosses the salad aside in disgust, and without a second look, tucks hungrily into the supersize cockroach.

By the same token you may recall that 4 middle aged scottish ladies pushing lumps of granite around the ice, dressed in baggy tracksuits, managed to push "Tits and Bums" of the top TV viewing figures, and that was at 1.00am on a Saturday night!
Michael Brigg
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