Early Int. Moth info.

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solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal »

Hi Everyone, and thank you all so much for what has been written, there is a lot of interesting information coming forward here, and I am still absorbing it, hence delay replying.
I think the fact that there seems to be a healthy interest in the history indicates that whether there is an artical written and published or not, the information needs to be recorded in a format that is easily accessible for future reference.......it would be such a shame to lose it.

I haven’t really got much more that I can add, but looking through old magazines and reading captions on pics and cross-referencing, I have come up with the following that may be of interest:

Y & Y May 1963 and “Light Craft” June 1963 both mention the “recently formed” International Moth class Association of Great Britain” so I am guessing this was formed in the winter ‘62/63?
The photo in L.C. is of the IMCA’s first open meeting, at Salterns S.C., and shows a mixture of IMs and BMs. I assume that BMs would still qualify under IM rules at that point?
The photo/report in Y & Y is of the European Junior Championships, and mentions (amongst others) Christopher Hibbert (12) Salterns SC, sailing a Torpedo Moth. I also have a copy of LC, July ’64, with a lovely front cover of IM 2331, and the caption inside reads “Salterns Sailing Clubs new commodore (aged 13) at the helm of a new Torpedo Moth” I am guessing that this is probably Major Hibbert’s son (?), as the dates seem about right? It would be nice to know, just out of curiosity.
My first Moth (Europa) may have been the next consecutive number (2332) which I did see was owned at Salterns at one time (from the Moth website archives, which I can no longer access sadly) The facts fit with my memory, but it would be interesting for me to confirm from old records (if possible) where 2332 went........ I bought mine in Emsworth, which is not far.
One other pic in LC (also July ’64) is of the Chandy Trophy, held over Easter at Royal Lymington Y.C. showing 12 boats, but only a few numbers readable. Irritatingly there is one at the back that could actually be 2332, (looks like a tan sail but number not fully readable),.... I don’t suppose I’ll ever know for sure!

Moths I have owned Europa K2332?? Mistral K3462 (falling apart when I owned her), A beautiful tunnel scow (my favourite) called Red Admiral (can’t remember the no.) and a Magnum ???? (never really got that going though!) and currently K2539, the Europa awaiting work in the garage.

Samantha.
Rupert
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Rupert »

The BMs have never qualified as IMs. When the American Moth was brought across in 1932, the boat's rig was redesigned to be taller (and a tad smaller) for the inland setting, so the luff length has never meaured. The hull was also changed completely, though I guess due to the lack of rules in the IM class, it would still measure.
Rupert
davidh
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:43 am
Location: Ventor Isle of Wight

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by davidh »

Rupert,

when I was researching the British Moth for the top dinghy designs series, I found that the rig changed on a number of occasions. The last big change (at least before the most recent adoption of carbon fibre spars) was to adopt the same sized main sail as the National 12s of the day (I seem to recall that this was either immediately pre or post war).

It is not just a matter of semantics but I see the BM/Im issue from the other perspective - it was the IMs that moved away from the BM. The British Moth, aka the Brent One design, is right up there in the list of long standing classes. The INternational Moth on the other hand has a somewhat different parentage, though in the end we can track them all back to the original American Lake boats.

One of the fallacies of the so called skiff revolution is that speed = better, that the faster, high powered boats are somehow an improvement on the older classes. When I did that Top Ten series, I attracted quite a bit of flak for selecting such an old ,slow boat - but in it's own enironment, te BM does what it does possibly better than any other dinghy!
David H
Rupert
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Rupert »

N12 style rig came in for the BMs in 1971, and took the sail area from 63 sq feet to 80. I believe that if measured fully, they are now just over 8 sq m. The post war rig was pretty much the same as a Firefly's, which must have been very similar to a N12 rig of that period, too. The original rig had so little leech it was possible to fit a backstay.

The BM is certainly "in the style of" American Moths of the time, but was never intended to be one of them, according to the class records.
Rupert
davidh
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:43 am
Location: Ventor Isle of Wight

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by davidh »

Rupert,

I think the influence was all the other way around. The sailors from the lake at Regents park imported an american moth but it wasn't quite what they wanted - so this is how come Sidney Cheverton got the job to redraw the boat to make it fit the requirements. I do not think there was a lot of reference back to the US boats after that point!

People also forget that the British Moth nearly made it to the Olympics in 1948 - it was the other boat in contention but the Firefly got it on a deal that the organiser was to provide the dinghies.

D
David H
Rupert
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Rupert »

BMs in Torbay in the weather the Fireflies had...doesn't bear thinking about!
Rupert
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Rolland moths are considered collectible in France...
even to the point of being expenbsively restored to former glory
Link below to an old Rolland being fitted new tanks in Cristalli workshop in Belgium who still maufactures spare tanks on request for old wooden or composite glass wooden europes

http://www.forumvoile.com/forum/viewtop ... a&start=10

Note that Silvestro in Nice used to put one or two more veneers on the sitting area of the tanks for the few europes he handcrafted (chiefly for his son , a top Europe racer in the 70's)

Personnally i'm always afraid to see those precious litle pieces of furniture being sailed in 25 kts +
angus
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:03 pm
Location: Aberuthven (just south of Perth)

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by angus »

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I have an old skol, can any body tell me the difference between the mk 1 and mk 2, I had a mk2 back in the 80s that I had great fun swimming around, this one seems a bit different but I am not sure, I have no idea of the number.
iowlen
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:51 pm

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by iowlen »

Here are three Moth's owned by either myself & Ray Hutchings.
My McCutcheon Shelley is in Florida & raced with a USA Classic Moth rig , but still retains the original UK number , 2721.
Ray sailed her and came second at the 2009 Classic Moth Midwinters in Gulfport Florida. Bill McCutcheon built her at his Wootton Bridge , IoW yard and he exported her ( and several others ) to the USA in 1965.
I'll be on the Island in April & Ray and I will pop in to say hello to Bill McCutcheon and have a cuppa and a slice of cake.
Ray did a lovely restoration job on his ex-Cliff Burton Aussie scow , Red Ned AUS 8467 , which I believe some of you saw last year at Roadford. This is a very light Aussie scow , and very quick when the wind pipes up.
The wingless Imperium Aussie scow belongs to both of us , and the photo's were taken at Newtown Creek , IoW the day after we picked it up from Pompey after winning it from a lady on eBay a couple of years ago. I'm sure her name was Sami ?
Ray also has another nice Imperium Aussie scow he's renovating & I have a beaten up Snubby design Aussie scow that also needs rebuilding.
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solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal »

Hi Len,
Yes, it was me who sold the scow, I'm in Scotland at present, on my mobile, so not easy to post, but I'll be back soon, and catch up with u. Great to see her sailing.
Sami.
roger
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Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:08 pm
Location: Frome Somerset UK

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by roger »

Lovely pics of the tunnel hulls. Thanks
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
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jpa_wfsc
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Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:52 pm
Location: Oxford (Work) Coteswold Water Park (Sailing)

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by jpa_wfsc »

angus wrote:I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I have an old skol, can any body tell me the difference between the mk 1 and mk 2, I had a mk2 back in the 80s that I had great fun swimming around, this one seems a bit different but I am not sure, I have no idea of the number.
Another Skol!!

we have one - its also come with some drawings that may help identify the marks. Next weekend I'll un-file them and scan you a copy.

I think from mems the main change was adding the stern tank and raising the floor level.

Fun when its windy and its not broken! There are pictures of it in the Gallery.
j./

National 12 "Spider" 2523
Finn K468 'Captain Scarlet'

British Moth, 630, early 60's 'Pisces'

!!!! Not CVRDA !!!!
Comet Trio - something always ready to sail.
fcdbm
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by fcdbm »

Great to see the photos. The Shelley designs are particularly elegant. I was speaking to Mervyn Cooke and he considered the Shelley Mk 111 to be a particularly sweet shape. The transom shape is the trademark detail.

The Shelley Mk11 was raced at the 1968 Worlds at Cannes. John Shelley and Mike McMillan raced them. They built the boats in Malta and brought them over as deck cargo on Mike's fathers yacht.

Was Red Ned an Aussie entry at the 1977 Worlds at Hayling. Ray has done a superb job on restoring the hull.

There are plans to hold a classic dinghy event at Gurnard Sailing Club. Ray would be very welcome to return to the scene of past victories.
iowlen
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:51 pm

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by iowlen »

Thanks , I'll let Ray know about the possible event at Gurnard.

Bill McCutcheon's ex-house name ( now his next door neighbours ) is painted on a Shelley transom ;

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davidh
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Location: Ventor Isle of Wight

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by davidh »

Have you any idea when the Classic meeting at Gurnard may be? If the dates worked it is possible that we could join you - sailing over from Netley (we'd just need either a spare launching trolley or some will lifters at the Gurnard end of things). Gosh - it would be a long time since I've raced from there- back in the days of Richard Parkes and Mike martin (contender days) then came over with the 505 when it blew!

A good one to get promoted - the year is already filling up with good classic sailing!

D
David H
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