What on earth?

an area to discuss dinghy developments
LASERTOURIST
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Well , the idea of one designed-ness was up to the 1950's criteria for the 505...

One has to remember that the 505 evolved from the "coronet" design (a nearly one off boat for the La Baule olympic trials....

The Coronet had been rejected by IYRU in favour of the FD (along with the restricted Caneton, the Osprey and some others).

The Caneton class guys ad seen the issues of restricted class racing (a handful of semi professional racers dominating the field, and producing an faster tweakier boat every two years and discouraging the field of amateur helmsmen), this situation arising, quite ironically from the wartime Borotra Rocq plan for bringing sailing to the masses.

Pre - war Canetons (On the Victor Brix design) were rather strict one design, professionnaly built boats boats ( more or less a french attempt to replicate the successsful US Snipe on our side of the Atlantic,albeit with a faster design with less hull rocker).

During the war period the Borotra Rocq centres started building DIY canetons under the V Brix design...but the boat was not designed fot that DIY sortof thing and many guys ended with non class compliant boats ...which the Caneton class had to endorse willy nilly..owing to the circumstances (very much like it happened for the OK class) ..so the caneton class went for loosely restricted rules after 1946 and many architects_designers tried to produce faster canetons (Herbulot , François Sergent, fernand Hervé and a host of others ) and in 10 years the Caneton class numbers were severly depleted because of the semi professionalism and escalating costs.

So , by 1956 they decided to go one design....and approched an embittered John Westell , asking him to redesign the Coronet within the Caneton rule (5Mplus or Minus 5Cm)....

The first 505 were produced at the same time both sides of the channel (The french one in an improvised yard in Paris , the british ones at Fairey marine) before Lanaverre went in and started milling GRP 505's (those were really one design as far as hull shape is concerned).

Trouble is the Caneton class had 10 years a tradition as a restricted class and they were used to order "their" sails from "their "sailmakers" , install their hardware this or that fashion, shape the centreboard and rudder this or that way...etc and their commitment to one deignedness was limited to respect the Westell design within some rather generous tolerances.

The 505 class wa separated from the Caneton Class some times after that (and the caneton guys chose a rather retrograde one design by Eugène Cornu) but the 505 class constitution remained rather loose on hull tolerances...eading to present day situation
davidh
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Re: What on earth?

Post by davidh »

Laser Tourist,

I'd not normally 'do' this on an open forum but your description of how the 505 came into being is incorrect - by a long way!

I was going to write 3 books (Contender, Merlin Rocket and 505) but this may now be 4 if the Moths get their act into gear. But from the 505 perspective, the first Chapter, how the boat was created, is already researched and written. What is more, I have gone all the way back to 'primary source' material (as I always try to.... one on one interviews, videoed, is a superb way of collecting data) and you're wrong - and in saying that John Westell was 'embittered' - well.....no!

If for whatever reason the book doesn't happen, then I will release all my notes and recordings, for now though please accept, from one who has already invested a great deal of time and effort in getting the story sorted, that it was not how you told it!

The Merlin Rocket book is now 95% written, though there is a lot of work to go before it gets published as a glossy 'coffee table' book. But even as I've been writing one, information has been coming in on the next (and, it has to be said, on a Moth book should that look a possibility). So, fingers crossed you will not have too long to wait before you can read the story for yourself!

Dougal
David H
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Well,
History is generally written different ways depending on what side of the channel you are, but my sources seem to be in accord (as far as the frecnh side of it is concerned).

The story was collected by Patrick Chapuis (Grandson of Georges Paul Thierry) himself a dedicated dinghy sailor and journalist at the french sports Daily l'Equipe.

Book references are "Histoires d'Eau" Calmann Levy 1967

It is a collection of short (and generally funny )stories about watersports (not only sailing).

I've just fished it and OK , some dates i gave may be wrong but the story sticks.

The first series of olympic trials is given at Loosdrecht and thee second at La Baule 1951

Alain Cettier (a Paris importer of Machine Tools) was on the Caneton class board and pressed for the class to go one design and so seized the opportunity to use the now un - olympic Coronet but wanted it downsized to keep the price down.
So the leading Caneton guys (Cettier, Herbulot, Laverne, Jacques Lebrun and Jean Peytel asked for a shortened Coronet.)

It is stated that Westell sent the plans in mid january 1952 and as soon as they were recieved the caneton asociation AGM voted a resolution in order to get two boats buit as soon as possible.

Michel Bigoin (later a successful boat designer ) who worked at the Dornier aircraft and engineering office in Paris borrowed a back shop to Daniel Mazo a Paris photographer and avid dinghy sailor and started to build the first 505 (OK, crossed veneers on temporary frame , no autoclave like Fairey had , only stapling and glueing at room temperature )
Alain Coyaud head of Cahiers du Yachting was generous enough to supply the wood (sourced from SNBCC Paris ) and as is always the case, some demolition of the door frame had to take place to roll out the finished hull that was then taken to CVP Meulan and christened.

It should have been cristened Président le pivert a private joke to mock docteur le Pivert (then chairman of Cannes Yacht club and figure of fun for the parisian sailors who collided with this over meridional character when sailing at Ski _ Yachting openig regatta)...

somehow the name was finally sortened to Président in a diplomatic move.

The same story states that at the same time Fairey Marine built the first 505 in GB and that chichester smith, Head of Fairey marine retained it for his own use and christened it [i]Fairy Tale ...
[/i]
The plans had ben published somewhat earlier in Yachts and Yachting and Ralph Wadham , the editor in chief was on of the first customers, along with some french helmsmen
Laverne (Boatn ame Sidi-Fekkar) , Lebrun (boat name NapoléonIII) Marcel Chéret and Guy Vance.

The first French _ British 505 match took place at Ouistreham, normandy (of D day landings fame) in summer 1954 with a trophy awarded by YCIF (previously contested on 8M local designs) , the rival and neighbor of CVP.
The french team was Robert Tiriau/ Emmanuel Lebec (Nantes ,long time Canetonists)
Arnaud Isphording/frédéric Aubry (CVP) and Jacques Lebrun Michel Briand

The english team was Charles Currey/ Austin Farrar , Dick Creagh-Osborne/ derek pitts-pitts and Max Johnson crewed by John Westell himself...

This last team arrived late (they had taken their boat on a cabin cruiser and rigged it in the open sea while the angered 5 other teams had decided not to wait anymore and start the race regardless.)
LASERTOURIST
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

The british team won, better sailing skill maybe , but it is also stated that they had put big transom hatches to bail out water (the french hastily cut the same in their boats), and used tried and tested cotton sails while the french went for the then problematic nylon / tergal sails that still had a lot of stretch.

The international 505 class was launched shortly afterwards

Then the 505 (With eric olsen of Fairey marine) won the "one of a kind"US race , which helped boost the sales in the USA.

The frech national championships were held at La Baule in 1955 (Winners Lebrun / Harinckouck) in a 36 boats fleet, and same team the first 505 worlds at La Baule 1956 (Peter Scott was among the entrants), before the Danish French team (Paul Elvström / pierre LePoullain) won twice in a row for 1957 and 1958....

It is also said that Jack Knights later campaigned for the 505 going olympic (said that it was a reallly sporty boat , a Jaguar E compared to a Bentley) but could not achieve the goal, which is perhaps better because olympic status tends to put a curse on classes, adding to the "arms race" .
As for the first GRP 505 By Lanaverre , an interview of the late lucien lanaverre, some few years ago in Voiles et Voiliers states that the first 420 was produced in 1959 and it is well known that Christian Maury (acting on behalf of the socoa team Latxague Lehorrf) drew inspiration of the 505 then produced by Lanaverre to design his 14 Ft Trainer...that would make the GRP 505 built somewhere between 1957 or 1958.

I hope this data is somewhat helpful to you, the story of the caneton class endorsing the 505 after the La baule Trials and asking Westell a shorter coronet is also corroborated by the Classic Caneton website, the french 505 class website and many other french sources , though details may change as how exactly the 505 class became independant .

Sadly Marcel Buffet is not with us anymore to tell a first hand account (his ashes were scattered in the Seine at CVP a few years ago in a moving ceremony , with his last of many 505 being towed by a gorgeously varnished Riva while a faithful friend threw the ashes over the transom)

this may seem a melancolic note but the post funeral meal at CVP much in the " Renoir's repas des canotiers" was a joyful event
davidh
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Re: What on earth?

Post by davidh »

Laser Tourist,

No one can doubt your collection of facts, but I can assure you that how the design of the 505 came about in the first place - and how the original boats were built is, without question, a very different story.

As I said, I had been busy on this for some time, as I had initially planned to have 'Simply the best' - the book of the 505, ready for this year (as the 60th anniversary). Yet it is incredible that despite the project needing nothing in the way of finance/funding - just the moral support of the Class, the idea failed to attract any real interest. I'm well connected with 505 sailors in the Nordic regions, USA, Australia, South Africa and of course here in the UK......but translating that into support for what would be a 2 year project just proved impossible. So, the work I have done so far is not lost, but is on a 'back burner'.

The question now becomes, "does the Class want a book for the 2016 Worlds at Weymouth"? If they do, it is almost too late! (you would have to have completed the project by Easter 2016 at the very latest in order to get a quality publication out for August).

It could well be that if the Moths ask me to do something then I'll just leave my 505 files gathering dust. HOWEVER - I made be in France this summer, complete with a Classic 505, at the event I hear will be run there. One thing is very clear, the French are many kilometres ahead of the UK in supporting the Classic wing of the Class. So, it could happen, should happen, but there has to be a commitment from the Class for me to commit my own resources! Many people from this forum have been amazing in the help that they have given towards the merlin rocket book and I'm sure if I said 'Moth Book' a similar number would also put up their hands to help. Would I get that with the 505 book? (apart from yourself?). So, you see the problem!

Dougal
Pure Magic: 70 Years of the Merlin Rocket.
David H
LASERTOURIST
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Well, I hope to discover new things and facts about the 505 design, when your book gets published , only it is a pity that many things now are obscured by oblivion and th original actors passing away.

I suppose the Cettier family had a host of info , documents and the like, alain and jean cettier had dedicated a full room in their stately boulevard Hausmann showromm and offices to the 505 (meeting place for class , library ...etc) but has it been thrown away or preciously kept?

otherwise a funny thing is that the 505 had a drink named after it .
Many mediterranean races were held in Bendor , Paul Ricard, of pastis fame , being a sponsor of watersports (same was true for early french 250+ entrants big regattas in the mid 80's.

The paul ricard company , somewhere in the mid seventies marketed a Vermouth (some imitation of Martini) called after the boat

It was branded americano 505 ...but the sailboat on the bottle was quite badly sketched and bore little semblance to the real thing, despite the brand being launched in the wake of a big international 505 regatta in Bendor (possibly won by the Gadel brohers)

http://www.ina.fr/video/PUB3784033142

http://www.priceminister.com/offer/buy/ ... -pins.html

The brand has been deleted by cusenier (a subsidiary of ricard) some years ago but it seems to be a collectable item
davidh
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Re: What on earth?

Post by davidh »

Laser Tourist,

The rights and wrongs of history do not change when they cross the Channel - though maybe the minds in L'Academie Francaise might think otherwise, but even this is wishful thinking. What is important when you write a book for an International Class is that the book has to include ALL of the activities, no matter in which country they take place. This is very different to writing a book for a National class (as I'm just finishing) such as the Merlin Rocket, for in this case all the action is confined to one MNA, one country, one set of sailors.

But before I did the Merlin Book, I'd already written the history of the Contender (it sold very well in France, I did not know that there were so many Contender sailors there) and when doing so, I had to learn very quickly that it is not the Australian Contender, nor the English, or German....... but the International Contender. So, the book had to be written to encompass this essential International aspect of sailing.

It does not matter which book I write next! Moth or 505, for both are real international classes, spread across all the main sailing nations (and as an example,in the case of the Moth it will include events in Thailand), with the history of the boat being told, rather than a 'history of the boat in any one nation'. To do this will mean a significant amount of travel, for many of the people who made both classes strong are now elderly - I have to go to them, for they will not come to me. My view was, and remains, that my intention was always to write the books for the 3 classes that have given me so much (Contender, 505 and Merlin) and I am committed to do them for the love of the boat - all I would wish to do is to cover my expenses. (in the case of the Merlin Rocket book, given that I have not had to travel outside of the UK, this will not be a large sum....) All the same, it is an investment that has to be made, yet to date the 505 class have not offered any mutual support.

Should they do so, then you can be sure that the book will then happen and I will be spending time, in France, getting the story there (just as I'd get the story in Belgium - another country that quickly adopted the Class, Australia, South Africa and Finland!) - I hope at that point we can meet up!

Till then, if you do come across any exciting detail, please hold on to it rather than let it be lost - too much information has gone that way already!

Regards

D
David H
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

I sincerely hope your book project comes to fruition , as soon as possible.

True the 505 is an international class, but it is important to say that it became an international class "by it's own steam" (the boat qualities and the dedication of the class board and members , and proeminently Alain and Jean Cettier) ...not by IYRU Regal Decreee and olympic status (think of the kind of "dog" the Yngling was , or as far as 505 is concerned ,the12Sq M sharpie, that made the 1956 games something of a demolition derby , one of the victims being R Tiriau , of Caneton and 505 fame... IYRU endorsment dosen't necessarily mean a good boat , though the FD was far from being a bad one).

Like many truely successful classes the 5O5 had to work it's own way up to international status and it is therefore unavoidable thet it made it's own way from "strongpoint countries" at first.

So the 505 very first steps were franco -british , with the US starting a little later.

The OK was at first a scandinavian thing , but soon got a strong foothold in France (Damgaard and KnudOlsen were backed by Paul Elvström who had a sailing loft in Cannes , milling thousands of 420 sails plus a host of others , and later a mast factory somewhere near Cherbourg , run by eric Duchemin.

Vaurien was a very french thing and a political one too , but it gained international status through a strong following in Belgium, switzerland Italy , Spain , and north Africa (never got any following in GB where there were a dozen plywood primary trainers , even if the really cheapones , atching he incredibly low price of the Vaurien were DIY kit boats.)

The 420 followed more or less the same itinerary for it's access to international status except that it gained US recognition as the favorite boat for high school , college and university sailing
(first by import of Lanaverre boats and better built israeli Snapir boats , and then by the Harken/Vanguard licensing), and the (for once logical) IYRU endorsment for youth championships

Mirror dinghy was a huge international success but it's "ecological rea of diffusion" was mainly GB and Commonwealth countries .

I think when retracing the history of a boat class the first years and initial countries of development are important (like for wines, cheese,and some other "identitary" products) because it explains lots of quirks , idiosyncrasies particular to a given design

As for the Contender , it gained following in France in the initial stages, when IYRU seemed ready to endorse it and scrap the Finn , and Barat , a small size, high quality boatyard (he had made the World's 505 winner for Marcl Buffet ) made some 20 or 30 contenders .

Then , after the Finn was re-selected it fell into something like semi oblivion, but was somewhat revived when the skiff craze started some 15 years ago.

Cheap second hand contenders imported from GB by Dériveurs services in Dinard appeared an interesting alternative to brand new and super expensive RS , Blaze ..etc....

But this revival is rather marginal compared to the Finn revival in France .

By the 90's Finn had been reduced to the team of would be olympic sailors an two residual areas (like endangered species) one in Lyon, the other one near Bordeaux.

It took a big lease of life as a gentleman's racing boat when René Siot, former chairman of the French Laser association who had ben cunning and efficient enough to impose the laser against the will of both FFV and the french X4 builders took over the reins of the french finn class and revived it with a good number of ex laser sailors (of the heavy, enriched and ageing kind ) and achieved a big membership numbers and regatta attendance .

When considering a class history and success the dsign factor is important, but the price / adequation to market needs is even more important IMHO ....and the dedication and efficiency of the class promoters (be it the boatbuilder or the class association or both) is also very important.
Rod
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Re: What on earth?

Post by Rod »

LaserTourist could you tell me how the French became the first to truly mass produce sailing dinghies in fiberglass? Here in the U.S. we still run into the original Lanaverre Europa Moth or 420.
Rod M
Annapolis MD USA

http://www.earwigoagin.blogspot.com
http://cbifda.blogspot.com/

Classic Moth: 105
PK Dinghy
LASERTOURIST
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Some people seem to think French people are centered on wine, cheese and perfume and incompetent about all things nautical...sometimes true ...sometimes not... as Hoyle Shweitzer (of Windsurfer fame happened to discover at his expenses when he deliberately did not patent the Winsurfer in France...

Well, it so happens that in immediate postwar there were two "big" (for the time ) sailing schools in France , both with a political background :
Les Glénans (founded by ex Resistance leader Philippe Viannay immediately post war ) and
Socoa (partly endorsed by the french navy pre war and then backed up by Petain sports minister , Famed Tennis legend J Borotra).

Pre war , France was not exactly a desert as far as yachting was concerned but the sport had been an upper class , somewhat confidential, thing.

Postwar France (among much rough and tumble like de-colonisation) was run by what present day US Chicago super capitalists would deem somewhat desultorily as do-gooders (Middle of the road centre left Socialists, Gaullists and...of course Communists)...and Wefare State was not an unpolite word

In fact there was even a race between these different sort of do-gooders to make the welfare state even better (Soviet Russia was still some sort of model and working class people had to be kept happy...).

So the nautical part of the policy (or better said general consensus) was bringing sailing to not -so -rich people and tothe baby boomers.
Youth organisations existed (quite underfunded but enthusiasm and volunteer work did compensate) and in every buisness of some importance (over 50 employees ) a law existed that made compulsory that some slice of the profits to had to be invested in a fund (Comité d'entreprise, generally run by trade unions) for cultural and sports activities for the benefit of the employees .

Not exactly a Soviet, but a very handy way of financing a sailing club and buy boats if the employees fanied it and voted in the Comit d'entreprise AGM

Glénans fired the first shot in the early fifties with the plywood Vaurien (A kind of very simple oversized pointed nose optimist built almost non profit, and priced to match the price of two bicycles ) and a host of Comités d'Entreprise created poor mans yacht clubs (The rich men's ones did not accept them at first) to sail on ex sand and gravel pits, around booming post war french cities and Dam lakes built by the freshly nationalized (abnd mainly communist run) Electricité de France.

Socoa sailing centre was a bit in the shadows ( just a little whiff of Petainism still clung on them) but by the late fifties the leading instructors team at Socoa (Latxague and Lehoerff) wanted something as a super Vaurien , with the promise of space age material (GRP plastic) looming.

Not so far , in Bordeaux, Lucien Lanaverre , a big scale cooper for the Bordeaux Wine industry was fearing that his very traditional trade would become osolete (he needn't have worried) and wanted his firm to go into something of the technical vanguard kind of thing (Same story occured on a much bigger sale with Matra

He was contacted by a keen sailing enthusiast of Caneton fame , called Christian Maury, who held degrees in engneering and chemistry and who was one of the very few pepole acquainted with glassfibre reinforced plastics that french Chemical concern Rhône Poulenc was then developping (Making the gap with US industry that had already developped some wartime GRP products )

Lanaverre was no sailor (his son later did become one and crewed for olympic FD helmsmen) but he felt that GRP was a thing of the future and was worth trying sohe alloted part of his factory and a few skilled workers to Ch Maury who worked for free at first and managed to build the first Fiberglass 505's by the mid 50's.

At the same time ex italian immigrate and wooden propeller foreman in the Chauvière factory had started his own buisness as a canoe and powerboat maker in the outskirts of Paris .
Domenico Rocca , a wood wizard , helped by his two sons , Oreste , a daredevil powerboat racer and Louis , a somewhat tamer technician who became a skilled trailer and trolley maker started to try their hand in GRP boats .

Rocca hit success big way (with Oreste promoting the GRP boats through race wins in the arduous 6H de Paris and 24 H de rouen endurance races).

On the sailing side Lanaverre also hit success when Latxague and Lehoerff with their carefully polished ideas about the ultimate sailing training boat met Christian Maury, The GRP magician who tried to put much of the revolutionary features of the 17 Ft 505 in the smaller 14Ft 420

The 420 prototype had some issues, but its promoters where intelligent enough to take criticisms (constructive criticisms that is) into account and commit another caneton top notc sailor Francis Mouvet , to improve the 420 before production started in full.


The only trouble was Mouvet was a super lightweight kind of sailor (same went for his devoted wife and crew) and he was somewhat heavy handed in cutting down the sailplan to match the targer of an ab-initio trainig boat.

Today the 420 is still a fantastic boat over force 4 but undercanvassed for an expert adult crew in anything under 15 Kts.

The Success of both Lanaverre and Rocca trigerred a host of imitators (Morin with the 470, La Prairie with the Zef , Jeanneau, Kirié , Beneteau...) and the 60's and 70's were something of a golden age and dinghy craze period in France ...


Trouble is , with Tabarly Winning the 1964 Transat race , almost winning tje 66 Bermuda race and the 67 fasnet and sydney Hobart ...and many others , singlehanded ocean racing soontook over the imagination of the general public and the market went for cruising boats, while dinghy sailing gradually lost it's steam and was supeseded by Catamaran and windsurfing in the 80's...
Rod
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Re: What on earth?

Post by Rod »

LaserTourist,

Fascinating history. Except for the Vaurien (which seems to be the exception), the French seemed to produce round bilge sailing dinghies which fits in perfectly with fiberglass construction (whereas the English and even the Americans were always trying to reproduce chined hulls, or lapstrake hulls in fiberglass - the flat panels a harder engineering proposition in fiberglass).
Rod M
Annapolis MD USA

http://www.earwigoagin.blogspot.com
http://cbifda.blogspot.com/

Classic Moth: 105
PK Dinghy
LASERTOURIST
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

There was a try to convert the Vaurien to Fibreglass (with some sort of primitive brown polyurethane foam between two layers of GRP) ...it was an utter failure and it delaminated.

Maybe it would have vworked with some kind of boston Whaler 13 process (sarcophagus mold and injected white "clark" foam) but it would have been both costly and heavy

Present day Vauriens made for racing in Italy by Faccenda are "racing beasts" no longer poor man's yacht, they use FRP like the Laser does , with airex foam core shape but deserve some care on the trolley and park stand. they keep their.


I think that double chine dinghies (or clinker dinghies) and even veed bottom single chine dinghies could be converted to GRP without too much trouble.

The chines acted more or less as the ripples in the panels of the 2CV and H Van Citroën or the JU 52 junkers aircraft

It happened to many british boats (Wayfarer, Enterprise , GP14..) as well as the french Ponant
(big cruising racing dinghy with a 505 sailplan ...its heavy GRP construction is bullet proof)

The Vaurien was special in thet Herbulot had gone for absolute saving costs :The Vaurien was made to make the best (and the longest possible hull) of one and only one standard CTBX plywood .

CTBX is he french certification for outside building use , not nautical, it is not marine ply.


He also wanted minimum joinery and skilled labor work hours, so the hull was absolutely flat under the bow , until the mid sections , and somewhat rounded at the transom, with a single chine (St Pierre et Miquelon or Newfoundland dory syle) the exact opposite of what is considered a good hydrodinamic hull...but it worked, OK , there was some banging upwind in a chop but top crews soon learned to find some degree of heel and work there way upwind...

I think thet in terms of class success a fast and sophisticated design is not paramount (oK , better not make a soap box or tub), if some racing comes in it will be one design with big fleets , or statistic handicap, so why bother.
Price and class officers dedication is more the key factor of success.

Lab classes with development rules are needed in some way (they give designers a library of design ricks and good hull shapes ) but a class don't need their "arms race" sort of thing in a egalitarian one design sort of class.
LASERTOURIST
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

There was a try to convert the Vaurien to Fibreglass (with some sort of primitive brown polyurethane foam between two layers of GRP) ...it was an utter failure and it delaminated.

Maybe it would have vworked with some kind of boston Whaler 13 process (sarcophagus mold and injected white "clark" foam) but it would have been both costly and heavy

Present day Vauriens made for racing in Italy by Faccenda are "racing beasts" no longer poor man's yacht, they use FRP like the Laser does , with airex foam core shape but deserve some care on the trolley and park stand. they keep their.


I think that double chine dinghies (or clinker dinghies) and even veed bottom single chine dinghies could be converted to GRP without too much trouble.

The chines acted more or less as the ripples in the panels of the 2CV and H Van Citroën or the JU 52 junkers aircraft

It happened to many british boats (Wayfarer, Enterprise , GP14..) as well as the french Ponant
(big cruising racing dinghy with a 505 sailplan ...its heavy GRP construction is bullet proof)

The Vaurien was special in thet Herbulot had gone for absolute saving costs :The Vaurien was made to make the best (and the longest possible hull) of one and only one standard CTBX plywood .

CTBX is he french certification for outside building use , not nautical, it is not marine ply.


He also wanted minimum joinery and skilled labor work hours, so the hull was absolutely flat under the bow , until the mid sections , and somewhat rounded at the transom, with a single chine (St Pierre et Miquelon or Newfoundland dory syle) the exact opposite of what is considered a good hydrodinamic hull...but it worked, OK , there was some banging upwind in a chop but top crews soon learned to find some degree of heel and work there way upwind...

I think thet in terms of class success a fast and sophisticated design is not paramount (oK , better not make a soap box or tub), if some racing comes in it will be one design with big fleets , or statistic handicap, so why bother.
Price and class officers dedication is more the key factor of success.

Lab classes with development rules are needed in some way (they give designers a library of design ricks and good hull shapes ) but a class don't need their "arms race" sort of thing in a egalitarian one design sort of class.
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

There was a try to convert the Vaurien to Fibreglass (with some sort of primitive brown polyurethane foam between two layers of GRP) ...it was an utter failure and it delaminated.

Maybe it would have vworked with some kind of boston Whaler 13 process (sarcophagus mold and injected white "clark" foam) but it would have been both costly and heavy

Present day Vauriens made for racing in Italy by Faccenda are "racing beasts" no longer poor man's yacht, they use FRP like the Laser does , with airex foam core shape but deserve some care on the trolley and park stand. they keep their.


I think that double chine dinghies (or clinker dinghies) and even veed bottom single chine dinghies could be converted to GRP without too much trouble.

The chines acted more or less as the ripples in the panels of the 2CV and H Van Citroën or the JU 52 junkers aircraft

It happened to many british boats (Wayfarer, Enterprise , GP14..) as well as the french Ponant
(big cruising racing dinghy with a 505 sailplan ...its heavy GRP construction is bullet proof)

The Vaurien was special in thet Herbulot had gone for absolute saving costs :The Vaurien was made to make the best (and the longest possible hull) of one and only one standard CTBX plywood .

CTBX is he french certification for outside building use , not nautical, it is not marine ply.


He also wanted minimum joinery and skilled labor work hours, so the hull was absolutely flat under the bow , until the mid sections , and somewhat rounded at the transom, with a single chine (St Pierre et Miquelon or Newfoundland dory syle) the exact opposite of what is considered a good hydrodinamic hull...but it worked, OK , there was some banging upwind in a chop but top crews soon learned to find some degree of heel and work there way upwind...

I think thet in terms of class success a fast and sophisticated design is not paramount (oK , better not make a soap box or tub), if some racing comes in it will be one design with big fleets , or statistic handicap, so why bother.
Price and class officers dedication is more the key factor of success.

Lab classes with development rules are needed in some way (they give designers a library of design ricks and good hull shapes ) but a class don't need their "arms race" sort of thing in a egalitarian one design sort of class.
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

As for the french producing round bilge GRP dinghies..as soon as the 420 was started , a host of imitators tried to launch their own classes, someime successfully (470, 445, Zef)

Sometimes with confidential output: even Matra , the specialist Car maker ( remember Yury Gagarin's blue sports car , the Matra D'jet, and then the Bagghera, Murena, and Renault Espace) made a try with a good double bottomed dinghy (he Capricorne) but the markt was cornered by 420 and 470 so it sold poorly.

Think is , apart for Caneton and Vaurien there were few established classes in post war france ,and plastic was clearly fantastic (almost any shape could be molded with cottage industry tooling, and almost no maintenance compared to traditionnal wood or plywood, so the clean sheet approach bade designers and builders free of dragging an existing class organisation.

Even organized clas had to "scuttle themselves " lihe the canbeton class dd, to endorse a modern, GRP compatible design like the 505 (though , ok the 505 was designed for hot molded process first)

It would be interesting to know if Westell had thought of GRP when he deigned the Coronet
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