Presumably Portuguese

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Oyvind
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Location: Stavanger, Norway

Presumably Portuguese

Post by Oyvind »

I’m a novice to dinghy sailing but happen to own and occasionally sail a dinghy specimen of which I know very little. See the pictures I hopefully managed to include here.

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What I do know about this little boat is that it was bought in Portugal and shipped to Norway some 20 years ago. It is 3.7 meter long (slightly more than 12 feet) and has a sign that I’ve transcribed as:

SECÇÃO DE DESPORTOS NÁUTICOS DA BRIGADA NAVAL
Registo nº 5219

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…which according to Google Translate corresponds to:
SPORTS SECTION OF THE NAVAL BRIGADE
Registration No. 5219

A dinghy like this is probably unique around here (Stavanger, Norway) and I keep getting questions that I can’t answer in a sensible way… Any information, links, thoughts or suggestions about vintage, origin or anything else that may be relevant would be much appreciated.

Rgds,
Øyvind
roger
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by roger »

What a lovely boat. Very pretty.
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Rod
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Rod »

Interesting dinghy. Looks hot-moulded which probably means at least the shell was built somewhere else. Pure speculation but maybe the shells were shipped to Portugal where they were finished off to the specs of the Portuguese Navy - I presume these were some sort of training dinghy.

RLM
Rod M
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Ed
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Ed »

lovely boat!

@Rod: Out of interest, what is it that makes you think this boat is 'hot' moulded as opposed to being 'cold' moulded?

I am not aware of many if any companies using 'hot' moulding except Fairey :-). It isn't a Fairey boat, but cold moulding would of been slightly easier to do....and could possibly of been made locally. But just curious if I have missed something which suggests this is using a 'hot' rather than 'cold' process.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Michael Brigg »

Another point of difference to the hot (and cold) moulded hulls that we are used to in GB is that the direction of the grain of the inner and outer (presumed layres) appears to be the same. All the moulded fairey boats (and others) that I know have the inner and outer layers usually perpendicular to eachother.
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Ed »

mmmmm........ maybe I am reading your email wrong.... it all depends on what you mean by the 'inner' and 'outer' veneers. Is 'inner' the veneer on inside of hull or inside of the shell?

I mean, I guess I should know this right off for sure.....but rather off the top of my head, so therefore putting myself open to much criticism.... and from one Fairey expert to another...... :lol:

I think you are wrong and if necessary, I accept your offer of a duel at dawn to settle our differences!

Thing is there are normally 3 layers of veneer in a Fairey boat, and the Inside veneer and outside veneer do not run perpendicular but parallel, with the 'inner' veneer, which is internal and not visible running perpendicular to both the outer veneers. OK, we know that some later Fairey boats had the outer veneer running end-to-end, but lets ignore that for now.

What is different with this boat I think is that normally on a Fairey boat ( I think) the veneers run forwards from the keel band upwards, whereas this is running the other way.

I have to admit, this is based on a very limited sample....basically of my Jollyboat and memory

OK, go on....tell me I am wrong :-)

eib
Ed Bremner
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Rupert
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Rupert »

I'm with Ed (I think!) on this one... but when I unpack Saskia at Clywedog tomorrow, I shall check...
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Michael Brigg »

Ed wrote:mmmmm........ maybe I am reading your email wrong.... it all depends on what you mean by the 'inner' and 'outer' veneers. Is 'inner' the veneer on inside of hull or inside of the shell?

I mean, I guess I should know this right off for sure.....but rather off the top of my head, so therefore putting myself open to much criticism.... and from one Fairey expert to another...... :lol:

I think you are wrong and if necessary, I accept your offer of a duel at dawn to settle our differences!

Thing is there are normally 3 layers of veneer in a Fairey boat, and the Inside veneer and outside veneer do not run perpendicular but parallel, with the 'inner' veneer, which is internal and not visible running perpendicular to both the outer veneers. OK, we know that some later Fairey boats had the outer veneer running end-to-end, but lets ignore that for now.

What is different with this boat I think is that normally on a Fairey boat ( I think) the veneers run forwards from the keel band upwards, whereas this is running the other way.

I have to admit, this is based on a very limited sample....basically of my Jollyboat and memory

OK, go on....tell me I am wrong :-)

eib
It would seem that it is a case of "It depends...

Here is a link to the Mark4 conversion of "Cumulus."
Inside:-
http://www.cumulus1867.co.uk/27-2.htm

...and outside...
http://www.cumulus1867.co.uk/27-6.htm

....and here is a link to my Flycatcher, 3184...

http://www.fireflysailing.org.uk/regist ... rch=Search

The internal veneers are clearly differently laid out in each boat! In Cumulus the inner venners slope from the keel band, back towards the stern while on the outer surface they appear to slope forwards.

On Flycatcher, the internal veneers slope forwards ,(the outer veneers are horizontal.

I presume there may have been changes in styling, but my recall is that when I had a diagonal planked hull, they were forward sloping (from keel to bow) on the outer surface (presumably this simply "looks" better, and if Cumulus is our model for similar vintage (F1867) the internal veneers then would slope backwards.

Does this count as a draw?? :?
Michael Brigg
Rod
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Rod »

Ed

Answer to your question about why I think this Portuguese dinghy might be hot molded.

1. To my eye, hot molded boats have a certain look, a certain patina. This looks like one of them.
2. Don't equate hot molding solely with Fairey Marine - it is much more extensive than that one company. (though, in an oblique way I got an answer I was looking for - it looks like the experts at this forum don't think this dinghy was a Fairey Marine product.)
3. Pure, unadulterated speculation (isn't that what the Internet is all about).

And one question:

1. Who are the first documented cold molded (moulded for UK readers) boat builders in the U.K? I'm putting Austin Farrar with his I-14's at the top of the list but hoping someone can tell me different.
Rod M
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Ed »

Hi Rod,

I do know what you mean, there is a difference in the way they look.

Maybe brought about by the fact that most hot-moulded boats have less staple marks, and less obvious signs of the wood being tortured into shape, than is apparent on 'some' cold-moulded shells. But of course this is a generalisation, with some cold-moulded boats looking absolutely perfect.

I am not sure what was the first instance of using cold-moulding. David Henshall in his article: 'The Three Wise Men' in Yachts and Yachting at: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/1 ... e-Wise-Men suggests it wasn't Farrar, but that he introduced the use of Aerolite into the manufacture:
Farrar responded to these pressures by designing the first of what would be an amazing series of innovative International 14s that would push the design boundaries of the day to the absolute limit. However, it wasn't just as a designer that Farrar would bring his innovative skills to the fore, as he was already working hard to perfect the techniques needed to develop cold moulding for small hulls.

The idea of a cold moulded hull was far from new, but where Farrar would be so innovative was in the development of the new glues that would revolutionise the process. Farrar would be the first to recognise the advantages of the 'Aerolite' series of glues; just as with epoxy today, Farrar also developed the technique of covering the hull with a diluted coat of glue prior to the varnishing. Working with veneers is far from simple, and Farrar was forced to innovate further to develop a new form of staple gun that had the power to fire a staple through the required thickness of wood.
TJ Vaughan mentions in 'The International Fourteen 1928-1989' that moulded boats were made in the US from 1942 and Canada from 1945. I know I have read a story about how the canadian moulded boats came about, but at moment, am unsure whether these were cold or hot moulded....I suspect 'cold'.

Still, although I know of boat-builders using cold-moulding to produce one-off hulls, I would still love to know about who else was using hot-moulding in the 40s-60s, especially for production built boats. I do know that the Merron was using hot-moulding and is often quoted as being the first dinghy to be made using hot-moulding....which may be possible, but it surprises me if they beat Fairey to it.

Nice Merron for sale here: http://www.woodenships.co.uk/small-craft/merron-dinghy/

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Rupert
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Rupert »

Saskia has inner and outer in the same direction.

On the broader topic, I wonder whether the hot moulded "look" has (as well as the staple marks and other things Ed mentioned) as much to do with the wood Fairey used as anything else? The pale Agba is very distinctive, even compared to the similarly dated cold moulded 14s. I wonder if the heat process bleached the wood a very little?

Mind, compared to 50+ years of sunlight (Saskia is 2 tone, now, above and below the cover edge) the effects would have been very small.

Looking at the pictures of the very pretty boat again, one thing that stikes me as very "Faireys" (even though I assume she isn't) is the odd veneer stripe that is slightly darker than those around it. This really is a lovely boat, and whatever the history, must be a joy to own.
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chris
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by chris »

In an introduction to 'The Technique of Small Boat Racing' Charles Rourke says that "...The National [Canadian] Research Council gave its hot moulding facilities to some keen Ottawa sailors." a few 14s were then built there. But it also mentions that before that U.S 14s were being moulded to ALARM'S design. so presumably contemporary with Fairey's development of the technique.
Oyvind
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Re: Presumably Portuguese

Post by Oyvind »

Thanks a lot for your interest in my little boat and responses to my post! I may not understand all the finer details in the discussion about hot and cold moulding, Fairey or not, but it seems you agree that numerous staple marks and presence of “stretch marks” tend to indicate cold moulding. On close inspection I found that the hull of my boat has staple marks pretty much all over, and also some areas where the veneer show clear signs of damage caused by the construction process – especially close to the starboard bow. Attached here are a couple of close-ups where these effects should be simple to identify. I’ve also added a picture showing the interior of the boat with the mast and two floorboards removed, taken from inside my untidy boatshed.

Øyvind

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