"Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

an area to discuss dinghy developments
JimC
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by JimC »

Rod wrote:Haven't figured out what the long tracks are for though.
I have a half memory of something with short rigid shrouds to wishbone height
davidh
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by davidh »

Oh dear...it is clearly time for sweeping statements again!

"awkwardly supported twin masts (Tim Coleman's crossbow 2 style, only was sailing on inshore flat waters at Weymouth), windsurf style wisbone booms that do not give much control over sail shape , What's more it was scaled up many times over compared to Crossbow 2..."

I think that you might find that the team up at Brightlingsea disagree with you on the sailing of Crossbow II.

As for wishbone booms, they can give better, not worse, sail control. Their use goes back to the 1920s when they were appearing on yachts based in the Solent, then again in the 1960s and 70s when they proved successful on a number of performance dinghies. They've reappeared again more recently, BUT it is hard enough to get news ideas accepted, without moving outside of the boundaries of what most people are happy with.

D
David H
Rupert
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by Rupert »

You do have to think up new ways of controling things with a wishbone boom, if only because things are out of reach. On the Tonic, it was impossible to adjust the outhaul as the cleats were way up in the air, and on that boat, outhaul controlled most of the sail shape. The answer was to control how far up or down the mast the boom was - bring it lower and it effectively got longer, so increasing outhaul tension. Once I had that sorted, the boat became much easier to sail. Shame I used to be unable to walk after sailing her as my knees would give out from crouching in the shallow cockpit. Dan Holman used a very low wishbone on the Punk when it first came out, but again the controls must have been quite different to make it work. Soon abandoned, so maybe not a good solution in that design.

Team Phillips was a very bold design, which appeared to go beyond what was within the capabilities of the materials she was built with - so certainly revolution, not evolution. Possibly a design deadend, though. I guess time will tell.

Looking back at CrossbowII, I can't help but feel that there was far more to come from the boat had the rig been developed further. The wishbone used was a million miles in purpose from that on the Tonic, with the massively steep angle, presumably to control twist. A stunning piece of machinary though, and I suspect a big influence in Paul Larsen's obsession with speed.

So, yes, I love the wishbone boom - and even the leg o' mutton sails with a stick for a boom which have been around for ever. A very neat and simple solution to holding a sail out from a mast and controling twist without the need for powerful controls and the large boom at head height.
Rupert
ent228
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by ent228 »

The swoopy French Job has a windsurfing hourglass joint on the central track. The foot straps are set up to use it as rather a wide windsurfer. The centre board is a standard windsurfer unit, hence the reason it is recessed.

It is a hybrid to allow its use as a windsurfer and as a dinghy. The photo does not show the stern well enough but expect it would be arranged to take some sort of rudder for use in sitting down mode. However if no rudder fittings the tracks are long enough to allow the rig to be move to an appropriate position and then let it be steered by body movements fore and aft.

I expect that the side tracks were for solid struts to support the windsurfer rig at boom level. Looks like it could be a good laugh.

It is similar to this one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fusion-Dinghy ... 4191d6b355

I could have a collection!
LASERTOURIST
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by LASERTOURIST »

The wishbone rig is certainly quite diferent when it comes to tuning , from the classic rig.

On winsurfs Control on sail shape was horrendous until Pierre Sebright invented the "automatic clamping" wishbome end (he used ski boots cables and a lever incorporeted in the front end) to do away with the floppy boom to mast link.... plus fully battened sails, careful sail design and normalized mast curves /stiffness,... plus "cutaway" sail tops .
Still you have to apply some very hard tension on the downhaul (sometimes with a specially designed ratchet handle and winch gadget) to adjust the leech tension.
On big sails such as used in formula racing and olympic RSX there was the need for extra control , as the sails go in the 8 to 11 Sq M bracket, so you sometimes find a kind of kicker in addition to the outhaul.

The hybrid dinghies of the 80's (french Wizz and Skeltic, -this one cold be used as a giant windsurf as it had a windsurf mast socket installed as standard- , the british Fusion , an the crazy thing i un-earthed on internet, which i think is german ) used the old style floppy wihbone link, floppy sails (making a kind of big brassière on the leeward part of the boom when the wind was over 10 knots )....so the performance was kind of floppy too , especially upwind.

On blue water boats you have the problem of big unstayed masts and very complicated layout to allow some sort of reefing (the heavy Freedom 40 cat Ketch).

The wisbone rig was revived on big blue water boats by Eric Tabarly on the Pen Duick III schooner, when he minced the british opposition in the 1967 Fastnet race ...he was just cleverly exploiting a loophole in the RORC measurement rule for equal mast schooners and could set more canvas without worsening his racing handicap....but the big rectangular wishbone mainsail had some trimming issues and worked well only on beam reach and downwind.

Crossbow 2 is an interesting case but i sort of remember it did not use windsurf style wishbones , but a kind of gaff / strut that could act in someway as a GNAV kicker, with a better controlled sail , furthermore there was no leeward branch of the wishbone to keep the leeward side -the most aerodynamically efficient one- clean of any obstructions...It clearly worked better on one tack than on the other.

Crossbow 2 was clearly a groundbreaking design and a very fast boat , but I dont think Macalpine Downie or Coleman ever contemplated using it in a transatlantic or even a Round Britain race , the desgin was for inshore speed dashes only.

The Tabarly / Thebault Hydroptère was something in the same league, more a speed dash boat than an ocean racer . It suffered a very long list of modifications and breakdowns though it once made a crossing to the Azores at some point in it's career

The twin masts on twin hulls concept (with cross bracing and big spreaders) was also used by Stéphane and Bruno Peyron on a transatlantic cat (called JAZ after the clockmaker sponsor) but it proved somewhat awkward (more pieces and cables ) and it was not retained on their later boats.
LASERTOURIST
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by LASERTOURIST »

This one is maybe not completely ugly , only bizarre and tweaky (think it is the brainchild of the US arm of Hobie cat) http://www.leboncoin.fr/nautisme/778452856.htm?ca=12_s

Proves that the idea of a windsurf rig on a dinghy still has some believers ...and as it is a US design you probably have some sort of recess for a buweiser beer can somewhere .
LASERTOURIST
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Oh , stupid me! It's Laser Performance US, not Hobie cat manufacturing the "Escape" boats....and using the sunfish rudderstock (Whyon earth do they have both this one and the pico-based funboat in their range?)....

Interestingly it's a Gary Hoyt design like the Freedom 40...theguy seem to be fond of wishbones
dronskiuk
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by dronskiuk »

LASERTOURIST wrote:This one is maybe not completely ugly , only bizarre and tweaky (think it is the brainchild of the US arm of Hobie cat) http://www.leboncoin.fr/nautisme/778452856.htm?ca=12_s

Proves that the idea of a windsurf rig on a dinghy still has some believers ...and as it is a US design you probably have some sort of recess for a buweiser beer can somewhere .
Gary Hoyt indeed... and that is not a wishbone but a 'sprit' boom that is adorning the rig - sort of an adaption of the Optimist principle. The hull shape (Solsa in this picture) was used on two models, the other being the Mango that later became the Escape 9 and sported the Smart Rig (Google it)...this (and the immensely ingenious Windicator..Google it) were examples of Hoyt's out of the box thinking - I was fortunate in being able to learn first hand what a true innovator can bring to design principles. The sprit 'Simple' rig pictured allowed the boat to retail over here for around £800...at a time when a Topper was close to double that price.

However..the rig pictured was light, put together in seconds and functioned reasonably. Escape sold thousands of boats in a very short space of time by taking the view (mostly Hoyt's and another free-thinker Peter Johnstone of J Boat fame...not to mention input in to the 49er) that sailing should not be viewed as a mystical art, boats should not be disproportionate in time sailing vs time maintaining (a strange forum to say this on I do accept!) and the ethos behind the boats was to get people on the water and sailing instinctively..the Smart rig and the Simple rig coupled with the Windicator led many people to be sailing 'by colours' within an hour, usually. I wish I had time to espouse the philosophy that it all carried but many aspects of it did work...maybe I'll do a write-up one day but sadly the company stopped producing 'sailboats' (I hate the term!) mid 2000s having been bought by a large US Company whose patriarch understood the message... but he died and his successors didn't and the good idea bits were diluted through other brands and learning about sailing became conventional (within the usual parameters) again.

Ugly? It's about perception really - I stood on many US and European boat show stands listening to kids saying 'WOOOW' and their parents saying 'What the.....is that'. They were a fantastically innovative concept that ultimately was never executed properly and died through that....I was the European distributor in the late '90s and through the time they were bought by the conglomerate. Not pretty, a bit too radical for the market I can accept but too clever, too well-meant for me to attach ugly..but I admit that they hold a special place in my affections!
LASERTOURIST
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by LASERTOURIST »

I have mixed feelings about the sail karts like the escape , the funboat and so on ... they do their best in simplifying the very first hours on the water , but then there is little scope for skill improvement because they are too tame...

IMHO they may prove their worth in beachfront clubs , boat rentals , club Med ...etc and only for the first few hours (like the very wide windsurfs which are a blessing for beginners ) but they don't fit in the proper slot as an owner's boat ...somebody buying a boat would quickly get bored with a escape / funboat ....The adequate level of difficulty for an owner's boat is somewhere in the sunfish / laser in gentle weather zone.

They don't fit in the traditional sailing school / clubs bracket either , because in sailing schools jou have instructors around and you can start on more demanding boats without too much capsizes...
LASERTOURIST
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Still it's hard to understand why a Topper should cost twice the price of the smaller escape, basically both hulls are a bucketful of soft plaastic granules thrown in a big industrial mould (enormous tool cost but very little commodity and manpower cost) and the foils and rig are basically on the same cost bracket..

Topper and Laser Performance are just feeding greedy owners / share holders or paying big debts caused by a crazy and unsuccessful diversification (Blaze Boss , Cruz L5000 Vortex ...etc)
Rupert
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by Rupert »

The funboat has caught on well in the UK, whereas the Escape range didn't. I nearly ended up demoing the first Escape design 20 years ago, as Wet and Windy wanted to get involved. Luckily it never happened, as they were not the nicest boat to sail. Fun in a blow, mind (the demo MXray was upside down all day) and the reefing system with the bent boom in a 2nd mast pot worked well. Never sailed the bathtub version pictured, though.
Rupert
ent228
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by ent228 »

Tried to find info on the Windicator-trimdex. Some words but no pics. Do you have a link to any?
Rupert
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by Rupert »

I just remember it as a picture of the no go zone drawing on a round card circling the mast. Time may have dimmed my memory of the clever bit, though.
Rupert
Rupert
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by Rupert »

Like this
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Rupert
dronskiuk
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Re: "Ugliest dinghy ever" contest

Post by dronskiuk »

LASERTOURIST wrote:I have mixed feelings about the sail karts like the escape , the funboat and so on ... they do their best in simplifying the very first hours on the water , but then there is little scope for skill improvement because they are too tame...

IMHO they may prove their worth in beachfront clubs , boat rentals , club Med ...etc and only for the first few hours (like the very wide windsurfs which are a blessing for beginners ) but they don't fit in the proper slot as an owner's boat ...somebody buying a boat would quickly get bored with a escape / funboat ....The adequate level of difficulty for an owner's boat is somewhere in the sunfish / laser in gentle weather zone.

They don't fit in the traditional sailing school / clubs bracket either , because in sailing schools jou have instructors around and you can start on more demanding boats without too much capsizes...

I'm guessing that this is not based on having sailed them and once again I'm privileged in having had hundreds of hours to play with them...they are quirky but are well capable in a blow (well, apart from the Cha Cha which really was a beach toy but at £399?!) ..The boat you pictured raced boat on boat with the Topper so as much or little of a slouch as that?

Re your last paragraph....the Escape Mango was popular with the schools (Rockley, Grafham, IOW, Derwent and more all used them) but they were the schools that were a little more open minded overall - the Captiva and Rumba floated a little high when capsized for kids so were ruled out on that basis rather than lack of performance or scope. The roller-furling is a brilliant tool for an instructor, ideal for matching ability and weight to conditions. Who (as an instructor) hasn't spent an hour rolling half a dozen Topper/Pico sails around the masts to reef only for the wind to drop?!

The main reason the windicators weren't used was that it deprived the schools of income (this they would say themselves)...I always felt that it could be used to show what was possible in the first hour or two (when most who are going to be put off are because it's all so confusing) and then the rest could be taught in a structured way.

It's a strange discussion to be having on a classic boat forum...my roots in sailing are entirely conventional but I loved the free-thinking innovation and the 'people's boat' concept of getting people in to sailing cheaply and without the mystery - I said in my previous post that it was a fantastic concept ultimately poorly executed and I stand by that...it did feel like putting something back in to sailing after all the fun I've had.
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