Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

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imptoo
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Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by imptoo »

The basic lore surrounding the Europe dinghy is that Roland's Europe was a tweak of Marique's Europa design. I've looked in vain for photos or better yet, line drawings to compare the earlier Europa against the current Europe. My question is what are the differences between the two?

I may be incorrect but I believe the Europa had a pivoting center board rather than a dagger board, but is that right? I also assume that Roland refined the hull beyond that of Marique's original plan but would like to know the real story.

As an aside, before the 2004 Athens games, the International Europe class itself tightened the hull measurement tolerances to remove an element of "development", particularly in the transom area of the boats, which over the years had sneaked in. This was obvious if one compared Europes build by Finessa against those built by Winner.

Getting back to the question at hand, are there any Europas surviving in race worthy condition? Are clear photos or plans available for comparison?
Rupert
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by Rupert »

Solentgal had a Europa, I believe, and somewhere on the site there may be photos.
Rupert
bornagainmothie
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by bornagainmothie »

Certainly, the Europa I had many years ago was fitted with a centreboard, but I could't say for certain that they all did. I converted mine to a daggerboard and sailed it in the early days of the UK Europe fleet.
The hull shape was nearly correct to Europe shape, except for the front end around the mast area where the Europa was much fatter. That shape was more to do with its construction method being tortured ply than of intentional design. To achieve the narrower bow it would have to be cold moulded.
My boat K33, is still around and looked in good shape on Apollo Duck a year or so ago.

Around the time I converted K33, (late 70's)the Europe class rules were being tightened up such that builders had to buy the official steel measurement templates for each section of the hull. I think they had to fit within 10mm at the time which already was a tight tolerance for a wood boat.

If you're interested in an early Roland Europe I know where there is one for sale.....

Lyndon
LASERTOURIST
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Well, I've been around in many clubs, sailing schools...etc in France ,for more than forty years and spotted dozens of obscure, cryptic, untold and even bizarre dinghies, even in the moth class (cabin moth, aluminium moth...even optimoth) , but i nver ever spotted an Europa with pivoting board...must have been a pretty rare beast...

In the 60's and 70's plastic was all the rage in france , even Matra (of Le Mans fame) produced a dinghy (the Capricorne, later to be built by SEB marine in Cannes , a boatyardfauroux was a consultentfor) and semi industrial boats by the then leading makers lanaverre , Morin, la Prairie , Gouteron all but strangled the " jewellers" .

As early as 1962 lanaverre produced a fiberglass Moth vith a very rounded foredeck deck and a "plumb stem" verical bow, the cockpit layout being very much Europe style...Then they started canking thosands of rather unrefined but cheap andnearly one design Europes that were the staple of Europe racing an almost competiticv against the few delicate wooden wonders handcraftedby Rolland in Belgium and Silvestro in Nice (Yves silvestro was a top notch sailor in Europe and later OK dinghy class)...

seems the Europa made mostof it's creer in countries were restricted moths racing was stronger than One design urope Racing...

As for transom tweaking it is quite right that Silvestromoth wre very fast downwind in planing conditions through clever exploitation of a measurement loophole, enabling Roland silvestro (boatbuider and father of Yvesz) to build a speed flap in this area
imptoo
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by imptoo »

Thanks for the replies. I'd love a wooden Roland and would be sorely tempted if I lived on your side of the pond! As for the Lanaverre Moth, there's one for sale in Virginia and I've posted some pix of that boat on my blogspot:

http://mid-atlanticmusings.blogspot.com ... -moth.html

So, getting back to the Marique Europa, it seems that main difference(s) are bow section shape and perhaps a pivoting centerboard instead of a dagger board. I wonder if any drawings survive of the Europa? ISAF have the plans for the International Europe Dinghy.
LASERTOURIST
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by LASERTOURIST »

It is indeed the "atlantic moth" by Lanaverre and the family "look alike" with the early 420 is unmistakable : foredeck wavebreaking ply coaming, rounded buoyancy tanks (flat panneled ones were incompatible with early, non sandwich , fiberglass)....It is quite right to detect Christian Maury's gimmicks here, later incorporated in the performance oriented doubles (490 and the later Jet)

Like in the period 420's (and even more so because of the low freeboard) the forepeak was open which meant a boat prone to pitchpoling if trimmed on the bow downwind in heavy breeze (but the plus side was the water could go easily astern wlile on the later Europes it rmained trapped in the forepeak until some genius copied the laser arrangement and put a small volume well around the mast).

Those early Lanaverre moths (and many early 420 as well) came with the optional "tube type" self bailer which was quite a treacherous trap for bare toes and could suck the mainsheeet end in a vicious way.
I do'nt think Lanaverre manufactured many of those as the Europe is an early to mid 60's design which soon killed the restricted moth in France and garnered the women and lightweight segment of the maket nowdays occupied by the radial and 4,7 Laser.

Interestingly enough Deschamps of St Raphael also manufactured a fiberglass Europe , as a stablemate for thir popular Ponant (the "french Wayfarer" a sturdy double chine dinghy using the 505 sail plan with a trademark bright red jib) . Just like the Ponant the Deschamps Europe featured (as of 1966 ) a well thought, if somewhat bendy, fibreglass mast (a rare feature long before aluminium and carbon masts came of age in the Europe class).

Deschamps no longer manufactures dinghies but still manufacture and sell corrosion -free fibreglass flag masts worldwide.

Here a gorgeous but not too expensive Roland Europe http://www.leboncoin.fr/nautisme/817605659.htm?ca=12_s ...well built boat and generally well cared for , but an issue is the sidetanks getting soft and not easily replaced though some were available from Cristalli ...some time ago. They are cold molded and not symmetrical so it needs some skills and tooling to get them re - manufactured.
LASERTOURIST
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by LASERTOURIST »

I'm not sure the mast is the correct one :the freestanding rigs of the priod generally had a mortise and tenon arrangement for the gooseneck mast and boom link and were of course of the rotating type , with a brass collar at deck level allowing much better sail setting when sailing dead downwind.

On the minus side the rotating mast made it complicated to have powerful vang arrangement .

In the 60's Europes, OK dinghies and Finns generally used a tuphnol wedge (and later a differential drum plus steel cable as a vang

The laced sail on boom (a throwback to old , early optimists style of rig) was not standard either .
Lanaverred manufactured it's own hollow wooden spars on 420, 505, moths, Europes..etc and it was all of the boltrope type.

The red sail is interesting, though i am not sure it is from a french loft (might be instructive to have a close up n the sailmakers logo
imptoo
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by imptoo »

Thanks for your input Lasertourist. Is Cristalli still in business? I believe he worked for Roland and eventually took over Roland's business. From what I understand he was the woodworker of the pair while Roland was the designer and also a skilled metal worker. I have seen only one Roland Europe here in the states (glass hull, lovely wood decks and tanks).

As for free standing wood Moth masts, over here I have seen both the tongue of the boom thru a slot in the mast (tensioned as your mention via a wooden wedge) as well as a later style which features a "gooseneck" contrived of a tube-lined hole in the mast into which a steel pin, mounted on the boom is inserted. In this case, a vang supplies the required tension to lock the spars together.

This later arrangement was common on free standing Moth spars which we obtained from Collars of Oxford back in the mid-1960s. I have two of these masts in my collection of nice "junque", one of which will soon be married to a wooden Europe of unknown provenance. All I know about this particular boat is that she is rumored to have been built in Italy and sneaked into the country (duty unpaid) with a container full of boats returning from an overseas regatta. A former owner named her Gypsy in reference to her storied past. The hull of this boat appears to be cold molded mahogany veneers and is quite stiff even though she must be over 40 years old. Sadly, I have no idea who built her.
LASERTOURIST
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by LASERTOURIST »

I'm chiefly a laser sailor, so had only a distant seat in the Europe circus...which declined sharply when the boat ceased to be olympic so i don't know what exactly happened to Cristalli , who was , as you mentioned Roland's assistant.
On french sailing forum somebody mentioned he had got his europe re-tanked by Cristalli but that was some years ago..I dont know if he is still in buisness , for the refurbs at least as production of new europes reduced to a trickle.

Roland had also designed a 2-in dinghy , much in the shape of an enlarged Europe named the Duo, it had a cockpit layout much like the Loday /Gouteron 445 (self bailing cockpit , double bottom) and yes , a pivoting centreboard...didn't fare very well against the popular 420 , 445 ...etc and even the smaller but popular Fennec by the same maker as the Duo Dupuy Chautard , who at some point dropped out of dinghy buisness and manufactured ...motorcycle crash helmets.

I think the mortise and tenon layout was OK (no pun intended)on wooden masts while the later layout with flanges and an horizontal pin was better suited to aluminium masts with a metal U riveted on the mast (on a wooden masts the screws fitting te metallic U bit would not stand the stress in a brutal gybe).

In any case the free standing rig is way superior to the stayed rig because it can work at about any alpha angle with the airflow still laminar , and even sail some 20° by the lee which is faster in some conditions and also enables to sail formally on a "starboard" , right-of-way tack downwind sometime before the mark rounding and chase the port boats out of the way.
JimC
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by JimC »

LASERTOURIST wrote:In any case the free standing rig is way superior to the stayed
Umm. The Mothies abandoned unstayed rigs about forty years ago now. So perhaps that superiority is somewhat debatable?
LASERTOURIST
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Re: Pierre Marique's "Europa" vs Alois Roland's "Europe"

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Think it depends on the intrinsic boatspeed...if it is non planing and slow with a straight beat downwind shrouds are a nuisance specially with a low aspect ratio sail as is used on the Europe...fast boats and even more foiling ones behave differently (zigzags and gybes downwind with the boom rarely hitting the shrouds)
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