Which way should my planks go?

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XQSME
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Which way should my planks go?

Post by XQSME » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:00 pm

Evening all
Not sure if this is in the correct forum ......

My 1965 Albacore number 1775 has its hull planking running horizontally , however as far as I can tell, every other image of an Albacore I look at online has its' hull planking at a diagonal.

Thoughts please?
1965 Albacore No 1775 "XQSME"
previous = 1962 Wayfarer W170 "Peter Pan"
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Rupert
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Rupert » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:34 pm

If it follows the same pattern as the Firefly, Fairly changed from diagonal to fore and aft in the late 60s, so both are correct! I'm sure Dr Brigg has the date for the Firefly engraved somewhere on his brain!
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Ed
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Ed » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:46 pm

My 1965 Firefly F2956, has longitudional veneers, and I think they all did from then onwards.

But can't remember exactly when the last ones were made.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Michael4
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Michael4 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:42 am

Ed wrote:My 1965 Firefly F2956, has longitudional veneers, and I think they all did from then onwards.

But can't remember exactly when the last ones were made.

cheers

eib
...and F2768 was diagonal built 1962...so somewhere in that intervening 197 boats they changed.
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sam mason
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by sam mason » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:14 am

Both are correct. Fairey changed over to horizontal planking at round about No 1400. This was done for the sake of appearance rather than anything else although there are those that will tell you that the horizontal ones are better built and faster. Having "done" several of each I don't think there is much difference
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Ed
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Ed » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:27 pm

round about what number Sam? 1400 doesn't sound right...

I should of said that my boat is sail number 2942, but the shell number is 2956 as we were talking about the shells I gave that number without really thinking about it.

I never thought there was any performance difference, but they do look might pretty with longitudional veneers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
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Michael4
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Michael4 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:01 pm

I'm a diagonal man myself...

ImageDSC01400 by dralowid, on Flickr
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by sam mason » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:00 pm

1400 as a number refers to Albacores which would make it about 1964 ish give or take a bit which more or less scans with your date for the Firefly change. Does it also coincide with the Fairey fire? Fiarey moulding numbers bore scant resemblance to the sail number in the albacore class because ,legend has it, that the Swordfish came from the same mould
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Rupert » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:28 pm

The Applecore rear end is tighter bilged than the Swordfish, so I think they must have tweaked more than the sheerline? I don't think they just carried the numbers on. Firefly numbers are also often out, firstly because they were built in batches and registered randomly, and secondly because shells were sold to home finish, which might take years!
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Michael4 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:09 pm

Apols for attempting to turn an Albacore discussion in to one about Fireflies...
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:50 pm

Michael4 wrote:Apols for attempting to turn an Albacore discussion in to one about Fireflies...
Applying to both Applecores and freddies, the suggestion that the longtitudinal veneers improved boat speed was originally put in the blurb from Fairey as a justification for the "improvement."

It was quickly squashed, not only because it simply isnt true. (well, only in the imagination of the original author) but also because the particular marketing point on the Firefly (and for that matter the Albecore) is that it is a "Strict one design!"

It would be "disadvantageous to suggest that some boat hulls are intrinsically faster than others.

Of course alot has flowed under the bridge since then...

... potentially 18 different mast specs,
(Original Reynolds, rotating with untapered section,
Reynolds conversion, rotating, with Wooden top mast,
"Fixed" Reynolds converted from rotating
"Gold" Proctor 'C' section, rotating,
"Silver" Proctor 'C' rotating
Fixed "Gold" proctor 'C' (Converted from rotating)
Fixed "Silver" Proctor 'C' (Converted from rotating)
Standard "Fixed mast (proctor'C')
Fixed Selden 'C' section
"Elongated versions of all of the above"

Heavy plate, Aluminium plate, Fixed Spoon rudder, lifting spoon rudder, Dagger ("vertical" rudder foil, Fixed or lifting,

Deck lay out as Mark1 Aluminium, or wood, Mark 2, Mark 3, 3A , mark 4, at least 2 fibreglass hull builds, one of which (Vic Reeves) had a composite, Rondar Foam sandwich all plastic or Composite, Builders by Fairey, Vic Reeves, Knight & Pink, Homebuilt / finished kits, and of course Rondar. Mark 1 - > 2/3/4 conversions, Bouyancy tanks, Bow tank conversions Full or 3/4 hieght, Cotton or terylene sails from Ratsey, various marks of sail and sail cloth from Hydes, Different sheeting arrangements, Forward thwarts/plate stiffeners etc.

Cognoscenti can consider aquiring the MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) clone, though it is built for the bigger American frame)

(The difference of course is that these changes are have been approved only after trials within the fleet and a full AGM meeting. Unlike SMOD's where changes are imposed upon the class without consultation, with the intent to inflate sales figures by causeing old boats to become obsolete.)

..which is rather what happened when Fairey decided to go for Horizontal planking. Though in this case it was to make the boat appear more modern. The Mark 2 was developed with this in mind, and in fact is possibly a slower design than the mark 1. It fills more easily with water/spray (no breakwater on the deck), cant roll tack as violently (the gunwhales go under) and it is intrinsically less rigid as it hasnt got the tanks to stiffen the hull, nor the deck frames.

Nonetheless I believe the best styling is that acheived in the Horizontally planked, Mark 2 layout with bouyuancy bags, rear sheeting and a spoon rudder,and possibly with a fixed Proctor mast. But that is an opinion.

Interestingly, all varieties of the above fill the top 10 at the championships.
Michael Brigg

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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by davidh » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:10 am

The moulds for the Swordfish and Albacore were very different - at one point Faireys would offer you "either or".

We been in and out of this topic many times before. Ed B is just one who prefers the more classic Uffa Fox shape with the Swordfish, others would rather have the more 'modern' (the inverted commas are mine.... but they reflect the winder expression of opinion).

The Albacore really should be recorded as Uffa Fox modified by Charles Currey and Greg Gregory.

And now, because I am a reformed character, I'll bring the topic right back on track, returning to the issue of plank orientation in the Firefly. There was a strong expression of wish that when the changes were being considered that the hull shape itself could change towards a more 'Albacore' shaped hull - flatter run, beamier aft sections, less deeply chested under the mast!

Just by a co-incidence, I was talking to someone who met Uffa Fox on a number of occasions.....

D
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Michael Brigg » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:35 pm

davidh wrote:
And now, because I am a reformed character, I'll bring the topic right back on track, returning to the issue of plank orientation in the Firefly. There was a strong expression of wish that when the changes were being considered that the hull shape itself could change towards a more 'Albacore' shaped hull - flatter run, beamier aft sections, less deeply chested under the mast!

D
Old sailors , like soldiers never reform. I believe you are still a horneteer under the skin, and secretly will always compare boats with Contenders and old smokers Merlins :roll:

However, I must refrain from tempting you of the true path that is "on topic!" :twisted:

Be Careful what you wish for...

The suggested firefly outline you mention sound like a 12 foot Pegasus. It would have been a "Chinese Curse no3, May you have what you wish for," as the Firefly might have then followed a path towards a flat out performance craft and lost the base it has in Boy / girl sailability and Team racing. Its faults, are what has made it a success and without the near monopoly the class now has in College / University team racing, where would it be now?

Relatively slow, means the fleet remains tight especially in shorter races. Tactics, wind reading, boatspeed skills and navigation are more important than simple athletisism. Manouvreability, (Roll tacking etc and with this its ability to perform well in a wide range of conditions (particularly light airs), small jib, no trapeze, no spinnaker, all ideal for a team racing boat.

Had the class gone down the performance route, it would have been as lost as the Pegasus (or Swordfish) is today.
Michael Brigg

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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by Rupert » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:52 pm

davidh wrote:The moulds for the Swordfish and Albacore were very different - at one point Faireys would offer you "either or".

We been in and out of this topic many times before. Ed B is just one who prefers the more classic Uffa Fox shape with the Swordfish, others would rather have the more 'modern' (the inverted commas are mine.... but they reflect the winder expression of opinion).

The Albacore really should be recorded as Uffa Fox modified by Charles Currey and Greg Gregory.

And now, because I am a reformed character, I'll bring the topic right back on track, returning to the issue of plank orientation in the Firefly. There was a strong expression of wish that when the changes were being considered that the hull shape itself could change towards a more 'Albacore' shaped hull - flatter run, beamier aft sections, less deeply chested under the mast!

Just by a co-incidence, I was talking to someone who met Uffa Fox on a number of occasions.....

D
Alan Vines, too on the Alb design. Some books just say Fairey Marine, which I guess covers a team.
Rupert

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Re: Which way should my planks go?

Post by davidh » Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:41 am

Rupert,

My researches gave no inkling at all of Alan V being involved. This may have been something of a face saving exercise as Charles C had gifted the bare swordfish hulls to Greg. From what I know of the various people (via my family) I think it unlikely that AV would have been a part of the fun.... but his inclusion could be something of a face saving exercise.

Greg G had discussed with Charles C the shortcomings of the Swordfish - this could be described as a 'meeting of minds'.

From then on, all the design work and hull changes were down to Gregory.

MB..... I wasn't agreeing with Charles re the Firefly... I put that in to help position the way the thinking/decision making process was going on at the time.

D
David H

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