International 14, epoxy or not?

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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Nessa »

there's a lot of impressive dedication going on here, that's for sure!
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by rme_01 »

I thought the name Tiptoes rang a bell and so I looked back at your previous posts last year and see you were given the boat by a certain Clive Charles. What an extraordinary coincidence. I sailed with Clive back in the late 60’s and indeed recall a memorable thrash across the Solent in his old 14 Tiptoes. We went on to sail a 30ft Van de Stadt across the Atlantic in 1972 since when we have gone our separate ways. At the risk of turning this site into a friends reunited social site could I ask that you give him my email rmeastham@gmail.com with the request that he get in touch.

In the meantime I think you are right to stick with the re-varnish route and accept the limitations of her age.

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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Fantasia »

The image shows the double width "garboard" inboard of the bailer hole and adjacent to the keel, split in its centre along the line of the hog inside the hull. It also shows the 2-3mm shrinkage gaps in the plank edges.
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Fantasia »

rme_01 wrote:I thought the name Tiptoes rang a bell and so I looked back at your previous posts last year and see you were given the boat by a certain Clive Charles. What an extraordinary coincidence. I sailed with Clive back in the late 60’s and indeed recall a memorable thrash across the Solent in his old 14 Tiptoes. We went on to sail a 30ft Van de Stadt across the Atlantic in 1972 since when we have gone our separate ways. At the risk of turning this site into a friends reunited social site could I ask that you give him my email rmeastham@gmail.com with the request that he get in touch.

In the meantime I think you are right to stick with the re-varnish route and accept the limitations of her age.

Robert
Of course, I have sent an email to his last known address, let's hope it gets to him and that he responds.
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Ed
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Ed »

OK.....those photos explain a lot.....

With those size of gaps, I don't think epoxy saturation would help....even if you decided to give that a go.

I think you are going to have to soak her somehow....somewhere....

As to how best to go about doing this.....really not too sure.

I fully take on board what Rob said about issues with wood expanding too much, but you really need to get the wood expanded a bit...and the cracks smaller.

For what it is worth....

When I got ISKA Merlin 6 she hadn't been on the water in many years and was very VERY dry and there were enormous gaps between the lands, 2 or 3mm in places. I bought ISKA from Laurie Smart and asked him what to do about this and he said sink her and she would be fine. I sunk her for a day, came back to find no difference at all. I left her in for 3 days to find still very little difference. I rang up Laurie and said: "It ain't gonna happen" and he said "leave it under for a week....two if you have to" So I did and it took 2 weeks to fully clamp up. It was pretty good then, but there were still problems. It wasn't till ISKA was with Chris that he took great care to clean out every land and soak again, that she managed to do a whole race without bailing.

I was advised to try soaking in linseed/turps by Dave Cockwell (Boatbuilder down in Falmouth these days - but was in Bristol). I used a good couple of litres. Horrible job, but no real evidence one way or the other on whether it worked.

So, I don't know.....I just don't see any other option but carefull soaking and being prepared for it taking a good long time.

eib
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chris
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by chris »

Yes I agree with Ed about getting moisture back into the timber. It should sort many problems I think. Iska probably doesn't spent enough time in the water still these days but I find the only place that is still a problem is where the garboard gets the most twist some 3-4feet from the bow. The rest of the hull stays pretty tight now. Ithink the present leaking is partly due to the angle the copper nails are driven to the hog there and then clenched ( not roved); because of the angle the clenching is not at much of an angleso doesn't hold firmly. I have sorted one side by replacing them with screws and should do the otherside now. Screws were used for the first two feet of the plank so I don't think that is altering too much! I find that hosing an inch of water in for a week or two before taking her sailing helps alot though. She goes from 90% to 98.5% dry - but never 100%! When I first got her from Ed I stripped out some old grey paint from the floor of the cockpit to sort out some of these problems and one thing as Ed mention was the amount of grit that was trapped in the lands there. Washing and cleaning that out does help to close up joints and prevent further abrasion. When John and I worked on 36 some joint had been abraded by about 1mm and swelling probably won't take that up anymore. On Iska. where I had stripped the paint I did use the linseed oil + turpentine method Ed described and am still pleased with that result. It has, I believe, put some strength and suppulness back. Use real turpentine rather than white spirit because it is derived from pine trees like pitch and is something of a preserver too. (and it smells good). I dosed it with as much as would keep soaking in for a day then left it for several weeks before varnishing. That was several years ago and it is still good.

I've often thought about how to soak a hull on dry land. I need to do this with Gently. I have a pond at home but it too small and full of organic gunge. Shearwater is also to full of algy, fishing bait and probably Weill's desease too. ( not to mention hooligans). So I want a method of soaking with clean water ( so as not to introduce unwanted organisms to rot the wood) at home. I haven't tried this yet but am thinking of turning the hull upside down and covering with soaking blankets with a polythene sheet over. A daily soaking with the hose pipe should work. On bare wood I would expect this to have some effect in under a month. But I am concerned that mould could start like this, which obviously would not be good. So changing blankets and carefull attention if mould is seen to start forming is important. Anyone tried something like this?
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Michael Brigg »

You can buy a large paddling pool these days for surprisingly little.

Image
This 15ft one is @ £45 from Amazon

Or its not difficult to make one with a tarpaulin draped over some frames.

To keep the mould at bay I would suggest a coating of clear (Water miscible) Cuprinol might be a good idea, although you may want to patch test this first to see that it doesnt discolour the wood. I was impressed how well it soaked into a piece of test wood I used and how it had no effect on the colour at all. It did not seem to affect the bond of varnish once it dried in. I expect it would give quite a long lasting protection for future as well. It is marketed as a treatment for wooden window frames, to go under varnish so it should work well.

I admit I haven't used it myself on a whole boat, But I certainly intend to do some experimentation when I finally have the Clinker stripped off.
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Garry R »

You could use a large piece of plastic which you should be able to get from a builder which they use for a layer below concrete floors before they pour it. Run it under the boat and bring it up the sides of the hull. ie encase it. Then fill with water from the inside. Might work.
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Nigel »

Garry R wrote:You could use a large piece of plastic which you should be able to get from a builder which they use for a layer below concrete floors before they pour it. Run it under the boat and bring it up the sides of the hull. ie encase it. Then fill with water from the inside. Might work
I would worry about breaking the boat. A cubic metre of water weighs about a tonne so you would be asking the boat to support a lot of weight from the side of the construction it is not designed to.

Reminds me of a story about BAe apprentices and their project to build a fire tender out of an old Range Rover. It all looked great until they filled the tank up and collapsed the suspension.
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Garry R »

I was thinking of a smaller amount of water with sacks in the bottom of the boat. That way the water wonnt just run away. The re does not need to be a huge depth as it is only the below the waterline where it needs to take up.
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Nigel »

OK. I can see how that would work.

Maybe cover the top and add an electic pump and a sprinkler to recirculate the water and keep the whole thing wet
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Michael Brigg »

Nigel wrote:OK. I can see how that would work.

Maybe cover the top and add an electic pump and a sprinkler to recirculate the water and keep the whole thing wet

Isn't that what they've spent £35,000,000 on while doing it to the Mary Rose!! :?
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by chris »

I was interested to see in Poole museum the preserved log boat. (many times older than the Mary Rose) Instead of the chemical they spray onto the Mary Rose to strengthen the cellular structure of the wet timber and gradually replace the water the log boat is preserved/strengthened with a much cheaper process they are still trying out. The technical name for this chemical is 'sugar'. Apparently in a concentrated solution it will soak into the timber and support the cells of the timber once dried out. The remaining crystals need cleaning off the surface once dry. A very sweet solution to a technical problem!

Not recomended for timber that's going back in the water though I quess.

I'll try some methods of wetting hulls and report back.
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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by PaulM »

I've been reading this with interest, and have refrained from posting as there is so much experience and expertise here; but after some thought I'd like to offer some observations.

With all that old wood and so many joints and layers, I don't think epoxy is a good idea at all; whether the planks are wet or dry, they are going to move with varying temperatures/humidity/useage of the boat, and with the bond of the epoxy likely being stronger than the fibres of the wood, it could pull the planks to pieces from the edges if used in the joints. Even if the boat were dry enough to try epoxy soaking, it can't penetrate enough into all the layers to stabilise them to the same extent, so there will be differential movement once moistue has found its way in, which will find the weak points.

As to soaking the hull in water, whether from the outside or inside, or indeed both together (in a paddling-pool AND filled up to the w/l?), whatever level of moisture it acquires won't be permanent unless it sits on a mooring, so it'll just shrink and open up again. Also if you want to varnish after soaking, you'll be trying to varnish on, essentially, damp wood - not good.

What would Uffa have done? Yes, he'd have used epoxy for building from new, but he'd also have used whatever was the best solution for a given problem. Here we have big gaps that need flexible sealant, so how about working clear silicone builders' sealant into the joints after the first couple of coats of varnish? It would be able to handle any amount of movement and ought to stick OK if it's the genuine silicone.

(That was the old trick with Moths in the pre-epoxy days with homebuilt boats; and even the first John Claridge Magnum, which had enormous wood wings supported by innumerable frames and carrying the shrouds, had to have several tubes of silicone applied to the cockpit during its first season as it flexed.)

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Re: International 14, epoxy or not?

Post by Ed »

I think that having seen the photos and the amount of shrinkage, we would all agree that epoxy is most probably not the way to go.

Re: soaking to take up. Yes, of course the hull will shrink as it dries out.....but you would be surprised at how slowly this happens. You certainly wouldn't need to leave her on a mooring to retain the effect for quite a few months. As long as she goes onto the water for a while each year, you will be able to retain the wood in a nearly full 'expansion', just taking a few hours to swell her tight again.

They take 4 or 5 years (depending on where stored of course) to really, really dry out and then the danger is more from how the shrinkage damages the nail and screw holes, than shrinkage damage to the wood as such. But you can certainly end up with gaps as large as seen on tiptoes, or as there were on Iska. What amazes me is just how much these gaps will close up when soaked, for a good long time.

But the interesting question for me has always been: Do you do the repair work and varnish.....and then soak or do you soak to let it swell back up and then repair/varnish. I have never really worked out a definitive answer.

If you repair/varnish first, then you get lots of varnish in the cracks, which then damages the wood as it expands. If you soak the hull before varnishing, then it seems to me the possible problems with mould etc from leaving an un-coated boat under water seem rather high......and as you say.....surely there would be issues with varnishing over wet wood.

For what it is worth, my very humble opinion is that you try and do a bit of both.

Either by very carefully soaking of the sanded hull in very controlled situation (in clean water - with salt added if you wish - although unsure of how this may effect process), watching for any signs of problems until the boat has swollen 90% up (gaps are fundamentally gone - but maybe not quite tight), then take out and leave to dry until either you see signs that wood is shrinking back (I think this will be ages) or until the surface of wood feels and looks completely dry, then undertaking the required work and finally putting her back into the water for final swell, maybe with a final coat/s a few weeks later.

or....

Put a few coats of the linseed/turpentine mixture on first or very thinned varnish, just to seal the wood and trying to make sure that if you use varnish, little or none goes into the gaps (could be hard - hence advantage to the oil approach. Varnish is porous anyway, so the water will still swell the wood from the edges and through the varnish. Then soak, in this case not so worried about what you soak her in. When 95% swollen and gaps are all gone, take out, let dry and varnish.


In my humble experience, I have been amazed by how much the wood will expand, but equally how long it takes to happen. I expected there to be much more water-damage done to the varnish and ply from being left for two weeks under water. In reality there was very little, although very covered in mud/dirt and I should say that most of the ply was above water.

I have also found that whereas I was worried about varnishing 'wet' wood, in reality, the surface of the wood quickly gets back to looking and feeling 'dry' and will happily take the varnish, a long time before any evidence of shrinkage happens.....so this doesn't appear to be a problem.

As to how you 'soak' we have discussed many and I am sure they could all work. I would just repeat that it takes much longer than I expected and 'blankets' take longer still (not done this - but seen it done).

@paulM As for using silicon...personally, I am afraid I have had very little success with it on old boats and have mightily regretted using it when spending hours trying to take the damned stuff out again. My 15ft Looe Riverboat is/was stuffed full of it.

I can heartily recommend the 'traditional' equivalent though......Tallow. Fills the gaps nicely, never sets and as it is pushed out by the swelling wood....the fish eat it. This was the 2nd half of the recommendation I got from Dave Cockwell, when he gave me the hint about the linseed/turpentine mixture. Have also used various mixtures of beeswax/linseed/tallow as stopper. All of which worked and were not quite so obvious as the tallow, but in my opinion no more effective.


looking forwards to seeing the progress as it comes along

eib
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