Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

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kfz
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Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by kfz »

Not had a too bad a year for me and my mutual dislike of Epoxy, been ok, probably cos I havent done much coating with it, only gluing. But now finally decided its too cold and wet for epoxy to work well. Last 2 times ive used been landed with a horrid white soggy mess in the morning.

Is there any recomendations for a winter replacement for using Epoxy as a glue. e.g patching decks, Not major structural stuff like centreboards etc but I would like to carry on with the deck work. Small repair to the word mast step. They type of thing. My local proper powertool shop has a fantastic collection of woodglues, didnt know where to start.




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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by Graham T »

For small repairs a small spotlight or angle poise lamp with a proper bulb in it will provide enough local heat to let your epoxy set properly. Keep the resin and hardener in the house so it never drops in temperature before you mix it. If working in a cold garage take the tins out of the house in a bucket of warm water so they stay warm.
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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by kfz »

Graham,
No garage. Just not confident I can control the humidity (nice word for stair-rods 5 mins into the job) or temperture outside. Bad enough in summer, I dont stand a chance now. I have no problem with Epoxy as a glue once its set but its a right pain in the neck and not convinced on its relibility outside.

Ive been using Gorrilla glue (essentially a decent non mairne Polyuthane glue) for years for cosmetic stuff and love it. Works great but never had the confidence to do anything proper with it. I see that a commercial Marine type glue called Balcotan has almost identical propeeraties. Im tempted to go down this root. Keep Epoxy for the big stuff but I can carry on over winter if I have something thats convinent and works.

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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by Rupert »

I've used balcotan in the past, and as it sets due to humidity, a little dampness isn't a problem. However, rain is probebly a bit much... and I don't know how it reacts to cold.
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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by neil »

Big fan of Balcotan. Just make sure you expel all the air from the container once you start using it otherwise you'll have a Balcotan shaped door stop.
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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by jpa_wfsc »

There is a good hints and tips thing on Balcotan here: http://freespace.virgin.net/melco/practical.htm
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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by Ed »

There must be quite a few discussions about Balcatan in the archives.

We have certainly raved about it in the past.

I have also used it quite a bit, but admit to rather mixed feelings about it. It feels very easy to work with, but the problem is that I have had quite a few Balcatan joints break now so don't really have quite the confidence in the inherent strength of the stuff in comparison with epoxy.

I think it is fine anywhere that does not need real structural strength, or with a join which is an engineered join....but I don't think it can replace epoxy as a strong structural glue.

I have wondered if there is any root cause to my problems with the stuff. I have mainly used the 'fast' version rather than the 'slow'. Is that not as strong? Does it set so fast that sometimes you have not got the pieces into place fully, so the joint is being moved whilst it is setting? - is this a problem? There is certainly a problem with the stuff (the slow is much better for this) that the foaming can be quite vigorous and certainly enough to push apart a join, unless it is also screwed or clamped in place. This can make it a bit of a pain for sticking down agba veneers in Fairey hull - a job I thought it was really well suited for at first. You do need to get things clamped really quick.

I suspect that the 'slow' version is better on all these points....

but the reason I liked to use it was simply because it was fast. If I am in no hurry, then I would normally use Epoxy anyway.

As well as setting in the bottle, you must remember to use gloves as it is without doubt the messyest glue I have ever used. It turns your hands black and you just can not get the stuff off for days.

As for epoxy....although I wouldn't dream of using it for coating at this time of year, I use it quite successfully as a glue down to temperatures where it is quite uncomfortable to work in. As has been said, you just need to have access to some heat, both to keep the 'guck' warm, the wood warm before you apply it and then for the first few minutes of curing. In my experience this is pretty good practice anyway, whatever the temp. Quick hardener may be better, but I normally use a standard or slow hardener - even when working in the cold. Oh, and really mix it. the colder the resin the thicker it is the more you need to stir it.

So, in the end, I would use either in the right place, but I have less problems with Epoxy.

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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by kfz »

Thanks guys as ever.

The aft topsides is already to receive the patch, the transom is out in this shot and was planning on waiting till I can get Caltha indoors to epoxy that in. Do you think the patch which outright strenght shouldnt be an issue as there is tons f gluing area with the 3 stringers and two inner patchs to bridge the join would be suitable for Balcatan?

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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by Ed »

I am sure that Balcotan would be fine for putting a patch in

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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by ICLYM »

Hi

If you can keep the rain away you can dry and warm small areas of a dinghy with Philips or similar Infra red Joint warmer. These devices are sold for restoring dodgy parts of the human body, and I have found them at Boot sales for a quid or so.
I have also used one successfully on Gel Coat repairs in winter.

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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by billytwiglet »

Balcotan pu adhesive is fine if you clamp or screw the joint together firmly. If the faces of the joint are dry, wipe them with a wet cloth just prior to gluing. PU adhesives foam a bit but it is easily cleaned off; don't attempt to touch it until it's dry! If the joint is not securely clamped it will fill with foam and will be weak. I use soudal which I buy from Hafele uk which is reasonable, and less than half the price of gorilla glue. soudal, like balcotan is waterproof. Ultimately, I don't think it's quite as strong as epoxy, but sometimes it is better and more practical as it's not all down to strength.
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Re: Now Too Cold and Wet For Epoxy

Post by Mungo »

Cold cure epoxies? http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/ColdCure-c31.htm

System 3 seems to be developing a number of epoxies that are not affected by humidity and work at low temperatures (or so they say, I have had very good experience with the company, but do not know that product). Being based just outside Seattle in the west coast cold and wet may make this a requisite.

In the "I'm not fast" thread are pics of a boat coated with a penetrating epoxy in sub 10 degree temps and humidity close to 85%. No problems at all, just slow to dry (although the product is designed to cure slowly).

System 3 has tremendous telephone support in NA. You can talk to the people who use or formulate the adhesives. They are persistently helpful and follow up on results. Not sure availability in Europe.
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