International Clear Wood Sealer

[kfz]

Anyone used the international Clear wood sealer as preparation on older plywood decks for Varnish?

Caltha's ply decks are sound showing no tendency to delaminate though they are a bit dry and rough (rough as in a bit course, loathed to sand too much). Will it stand up to some movement? Anyone tried it in a similar scenario?

Pretty much decided against using epoxy. cos :-

Not sure it will stand up to any movement without cracking
I struggle to get anything like a passable finish, always gets damp in it and goes orange pealy
Makes the wood go really dark and dull.
I have had problems with other boats trapping moisture under the paint.

The other option is too just thin down the schooner and use that. At least it will be very easy to apply maintain and suits me as i often only have an hour or two here and there to do work.

Kev

[jpa_wfsc]

I know SP250 solvent-bourne epoxy is quite good at what you describe - firming up and stiffening tired ply decks. It soaks in very well, and is easy to use - very long mixed pot life for example.

[kfz]

JP, I dont want to use epoxy, apart from the reasons above in 2+ years of using it I have never get a good finish and I will be left with ( a very hard and difficult to remove) problem.

Kev

[sam mason]

I have used 2K clearcoat car laquer for years with good results. 2 or 3 coats leave it for a couple of days, sand back flat bung the top coat of practicularly anything on.

[Rupert]

Yes, it works, is the simple answer, as do other isocyanate primers, such as Blakes woodseal (does it still exist?) Bondaseal and the old favorite of the forum, G4 pond sealer. The latter has the advantage of a very short cure time.

[moggy]

eerrrr

I did 7 by 50% thin of schooner, for 2 coats. then a 15% thin for 2 coats.

left it for 1 week to go sort of hard, but it was in a heated garage at 20oC

sanded then did 3 coats thinned 10% for first then 10-5% depending on good my eyes where for the mixing.

left it for another week

then 5 coats by brush thinned around 5%- never going back and just using the most expensive brush I could buy! left it for a few days and a VERY light wet sand to take out the 'tics' and then a really light 'cut'/wet/colour polish to bring the shine back

and thats how she looked for the dinghy show!

I think she looked ok bar for the 2 or 3 runs I'd seen on the morning of the show, but i hadn't got any wet or dry to take them out

how she looked........ well Kev, you'll have to ask those that saw her at the show. it was hard work and not sure how you'll get on if you're still working outside?

btw, you still up for Shropshire on the 27th of May????

Gaz

[roger]

She looked stunning. I have to admit I dont put half the effort into my varnishing.

[kfz]

Sod it I think I will just varnish it. I like varnishing, its easy to do and easy to fix and it makes be happy.

Re Shropshire yes I hope so! Will confirm.

Kev

[moggy]

No kev it's the thinners that make you happy!!! Well they do with me

Cheers Roger!

Gaz

[Mungo]

Can I distract from beautiful varnish...

What is the aversion to sealing with epoxy but not with wood seal? Surely sealed is sealed, they are all plastic coatings, just different chemistry. I understand wood rotting if moisture gets in between two epoxy sealed surfaces. Wouldn't the same thing happen between any moisture barrier?

Isn't the history of wood boats rotting more to do with rather poor quality fiberglass and polyester resins from the 70-80's. The problem being the adhesive that did not adhere well to wood while the resin and fiberglass did adhere well forming pockets that retained water next to the wood? Same blistering problem on larger balsa cored yachts etc.

I understand varnish vs epoxy from an aesthetic point of view, but varnish vs paint vs epoxy vs isocyanates as a barrier??? I would expect badly done varnish is going to be as much a problem as poorly done epoxy. The key is a well prepared surface that the coating penetrates and adheres to. Is that not why we thin varnish for the first couple of coats? the same idea behind thin epoxies?

I have an epoxy coated kayak that has traveled thousands of km on a roof rack, bouncing wobbling, flexing. It hasn't been treated with any respect and there isn't any cracking of the epoxy after 12 years. The epoxy used to coat the wood is almost rubbery weeks after it polymerizes and it remains very flexible, it would be a crappy glue but has been a resilient coating. I think if you use the right product for the application the modern epoxies perform at a very high standard. Of course they are expensive and using multiple formulations increases that cost significantly. Would love input as I base my impressions on a one boat experience, but it has been a good one.

thanks

Mungo

[kfz]

Can I distract from beautiful varnish...

What is the aversion to sealing with epoxy but not with wood seal? Surely sealed is sealed, they are all plastic coatings, just different chemistry. I understand wood rotting if moisture gets in between two epoxy sealed surfaces. Wouldn't the same thing happen between any moisture barrier?

Isn't the history of wood boats rotting more to do with rather poor quality fiberglass and polyester resins from the 70-80's. The problem being the adhesive that did not adhere well to wood while the resin and fiberglass did adhere well forming pockets that retained water next to the wood? Same blistering problem on larger balsa cored yachts etc.

I understand varnish vs epoxy from an aesthetic point of view, but varnish vs paint vs epoxy vs isocyanates as a barrier??? I would expect badly done varnish is going to be as much a problem as poorly done epoxy. The key is a well prepared surface that the coating penetrates and adheres to. Is that not why we thin varnish for the first couple of coats? the same idea behind thin epoxies?

I have an epoxy coated kayak that has traveled thousands of km on a roof rack, bouncing wobbling, flexing. It hasn't been treated with any respect and there isn't any cracking of the epoxy after 12 years. The epoxy used to coat the wood is almost rubbery weeks after it polymerizes and it remains very flexible, it would be a crappy glue but has been a resilient coating. I think if you use the right product for the application the modern epoxies perform at a very high standard. Of course they are expensive and using multiple formulations increases that cost significantly. Would love input as I base my impressions on a one boat experience, but it has been a good one.

thanks

Mungo

Mungo,

Sure. A few reasons. I personally cant get on with it as a coating. For filling or glueing I have no problem (though its a right old ballache compared to PU adhesives) but for sheer glue strenght and below waterline I dont use anything else. But gor coating Im never happy with it. Im worknig outside for starters. On hotday the hard dew makes it white and on a wet day it does the same. Its often orange peely (maybe its the old wood, Caltha is over 60 years old).

I think im using the wrong stuff. SP do an epxoy specifially for coating and maybe I will give that a go one day.

Well aware that other people get great finishes with it, but despite practice it still comes out wrong for me.

Once it goes on it a nightmare to get off, need loads of heat and it eats through sanding pads so When I muck it up its a right pain.

If you can encapsulate the item (you probably can with a Canoe??) then you stand a chance of keeping the moiture out, but if you cant It gets in and then rises to the deck and cant get out, ruining the decks. Which is exactly whats happened to my other GP with painted decks. For new builds Its probably better but for oldies I can t bring myself to do it. Not sure if you know how a GP is made it ply on a mahongany frame (like an overbuilt old wardrobe or an 1930's glider), not realistically going to be able to seal it up.

As for cracking, I dont know. Im guessing. Maybe it wont. I sail in quite rough waters where Gaz will atest, a breezy day will often give a good wind over tide in the channels with 6-8ft standing walls of water not uncommon. Ive been told that you can often lose site of smaller boats masts. Though I would like to keep Caltha out of these conditions if I can help it I need to be prepared if it does happen.

I dont know about wood seals hence the question about the 2 part international one. But I think Im not gonig to use it after this.

So cut cut to the chase, a mix of personal reasons and my beleif its not right for an old boat. I have tried honest with epoxy, it just doesnt work out for me.

Kev

[Mungo]

Thanks

I think I came across epoxy indignant which I did not intend... There often is a good reason why the traditional approach works.

I was really wondering if varnish could "breath" and let wood dry?

Does it have a micro-structure such that it has a repellent outside surface and where it binds wood it is more porous. Lets water move through it in one direction. I'll head back to the asylum now...

Mungo

[kfz]

Not at all mate. Not pretending I have the answers, far from it. hence all the questions.

I dont think its an inpervious as epoxy, but I dont know im only guessing. Just gotta do what I think is best.

Kev

[billytwiglet]

Thinned varnish, no contest. Epifanes do a flow enhancer (Robbins don't stock it) which is excellent for the top coats rather than introducing more thinners.

[kfz]

Had a response from International UK help line who said its perfectly suitable for old build plywood boats.

in 2 minds again now. I may go for it....

Kev