FD K9

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JB9
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FD K9

Post by JB9 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:28 pm

Flying Dutchman K9 has the old style kicker with a bar (holed) but I am not 100% sure what connects where, would anyone have a photo please?

Does anyone know what year the continuous trapeze system was introduced? K9 does not have it but am tempted to fit one. Anyone have one for sale?

Thank you.
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Max McCarthy
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Re: FD K9

Post by Max McCarthy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:50 pm

Hi JB9,

Sorry for my ignorance, but having heard of a continues trapeze system; how does it work?

Many thanks, and best wishes,

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davidh
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Re: FD K9

Post by davidh » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:01 pm

HI Trevor,

Unless there is a particular 'need' to go continuous, then I'd stay with what you know.

If this is on K-9, then you're hardly going to be aiming for ultra competitive, so stick with furling the genoa and just playing the spinnaker (or the other way around).

Timescale wise, the continuous system came in mid 60s (way after K-9........) so if you want it as per the day then you'd probably end up with 'dogbone' trapeze rings and the old, heavy 'theta' handles - hateful things from the crews point of view. Depends too on the crew - which system they are happier with..... continuous systems are good right until you go out on the elastic!

D

Max: Continuous trapeze systems only really found favour on the FD, where, with the high boom, crews could also 'walk through' from tack to tack. Some early Hornets, which before the new mainsail also had a high boom, also used the system. The two trapeze wires were linked by a shockcord 'runner' that passes under the boom. The crew hooks on and in effect stays hooked on, even when the boat is passing through a tack or gybe - when you want to go out on the wire you just push out and hey presto - you're hooked on already.

The system didn't work in deeper cockpited boats such as the Osprey and 505 (though people did try them) nor in fast tacking boats. You have to remember that much of this was back in the earlier days of trapezing when the techniques were nowhere near as well developed as they are today. You'd not think (for instance in a 505) of hooking on before going out on the wire - you swung out and then hooked on so as to keep the boat flat coming out of the tack. The slower tacking FD , well, this wasn't such an issue!

D
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Re: FD K9

Post by SoggyBadger » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:27 pm

We tried a continuous trapeze system on one of my Ospreys. My crew didn't like it as meant crossing the boat facing forwards. Other boats in the fleet had similar experiences.

Trevor when you say "bar" on the kicker do you mean a kicker lever? Is it black anodised, maybe 10 inches to a foot long by two inches wide, two pieces like that side by side with a bit of a gap between them and a number of very big weight-reducing holes?
Best wishes


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JB9
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Re: FD K9

Post by JB9 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:42 pm

Thanks David, it is quite a deep cockpit as there is no crew deck. I will take some photos at the weekend. Condition is fair but lots of potential, all original style fittings which will be a challenge!

There is just one bar but otherwise as you describe Paul.
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Re: FD K9

Post by Graham T » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:27 am

A simple kicker lever diagram is here - http://www.apsltd.com/c-1123-holtallend ... lever.aspx

As to how it is used in K9 that in my experience will be a lot of head scratching and re-routing of string......
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Re: FD K9

Post by Michael Brigg » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:07 am

Graham T wrote:A simple kicker lever diagram is here - http://www.apsltd.com/c-1123-holtallend ... lever.aspx

As to how it is used in K9 that in my experience will be a lot of head scratching and re-routing of string......
Is it just me or is this showing the lever "upside down"

Firstly, in the arrangement shown, the lever would have a rather small arc of movement. (The maximum it can do to be effective is 90')

Secondly, the lever as shown in this diagram would progressively lose leverage as it was pulled in. It needs to be set the other way up so that as the two attachment points circle around eachother, they move from an East west position and approach a "North and south position." This would allow the leverage to get stronger as the kicker gets tighter. (ie the amount of shortening per degree of lever movement gets progressively less. Simple trigonometry)

I love levers, but the range of pull is rather small. A "macro" adjustment is needed between the mast and the lower attachment. A simple 2:1, or 4:1 pulley system works well.
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Re: FD K9

Post by Graham T » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:13 am

I think you are right Michael - I just googled for an image having tried and failed to write a description of how it should be rigged. Trust me to find an incorrect one!
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Michael Brigg
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Re: FD K9

Post by Michael Brigg » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:27 am

Not a problem.

The other important thing is to ensure that all the points of attachment on the mast are on a Vertical line, parrallel to the mast. The whole arrangement should effectively lie in a 2 dimentional plane that is hinged, like a door onto the mast track. This is easy if you have a rotating mast like the original firefly but needs more care on a fixed mast, especially if the adjstment lines are leading Rt and L. If the line deviates off that 2D plane, the arrangement is destabilised.

With that in mind, I would put a short strop between the lever end and the turning block, (to allow for the changing angles to fixed blockes on the mast), and lead the lines to another lead block, either side of the mast, positioned below the mast attachement of the vang, otherwise the vang will foul the control line as the boom is let out!
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Re: FD K9

Post by davidh » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:29 am

Trevor,

if K-9 (wasn't that Dr Who's dog?) predates the standard FD crewdeck layout, then I'd think VERY hard about going continuous!
If you do too far down below the line of the shockcord it is very easy for the trapeze to 'dis-engage' - which means that when the crew tries to go out on the wire he either has to re-engage OR...he goes out on the shockcord - not to be recommended.

A boat of that vintage sounds wonderful - I'd hunt around for a pair of the theta rings as that would be in keeping with the era of the boat.

D
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JB9
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Re: FD K9

Post by JB9 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:27 am

David, will they be black, quite chunky and in two sections joined by rope?
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Re: FD K9

Post by davidh » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:52 am

Trevor...........

This is a great post - it's really got the grey cells working! I was trying to think of other boats that had been successful with a continuous system. FDs clearly, some early trapeze rigged hornets (I guess you'd be looking at the early 1970s when they changed from planks) - I've also seen them on a mirror 14 and amazingly - on a Contender but in this case it was because the helm really did sail single handed; he' had an accident that had damaged one hand but still sailed courtesy of a continuous trapeze and a jam cleat stitched to his traapeze harness.

The other interesting aspect of this topic takes us right back to the vexed question of how far should a boat go in keeping to it's place on the historical timeline.
Go for the big clunky theta rings and the next thing would be the harness - one of those hateful 'girdle' like contraptions with (if one was lucky) should straps. Elsewhere on here we've had the discussion (look for the thread on the 'DUO' dinghy) on the Gayle Heard Harness - one of the first that seriously considered crew comfort.

Last summer, for about 40 minutes, I sailed with a poor quality harness - it quickly makes you realise how far the clothing has developed too!

D
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Re: FD K9

Post by alan williams » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:16 am

Hi David
Just about every Revo Hornet was rigged with continuous Trapeze but they had crew decks. Most of my crews thought it was the dogs b......ks and would never change. On the FD the Continuous trape is used as the crew needs to use both arms to get the genny sheeted. However with a deep cockpit it would not workas you rightly suggest due to the angle of the elastic.
Cheers Al

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Re: FD K9

Post by Nessa » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:28 pm

Trevor, get hold of a copy of Rodney Pattisson's Boatspeed. It is full of pics of FDs, imcluding continuous trap systems and lever kickers.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Boatspeed-Super ... 0906754259
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JB9
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Re: FD K9

Post by JB9 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:48 pm

Thanks, good idea and a bargain at 1p plus p & P.
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