One for the Children

[Michael Brigg]

Just how do we get our offspring to understand what classic means?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-MIRROR-DI ... otohosting

Of it's kind, whatever one says the Mirror is a classic. It is accesible, multifunctional and as a development in sailing must surely have been one of the more significant factors in opening up the sport from a priviledged few to those who with a few practical skills are up there with the best.

If "Classic" means possession of a popular but somewhat obsolete dinghy with a sail number in only 2figures then this is about as close as you might get in this class!

Having sailed my childrens mirror I was surprised by the performance and the quirky rig is right out of the Classic and Vintage " top drawer. As a class the Gaff rig is almost certainly going to become unused with the adoption of a bermudan rig by the class on the grounds of "Cost." Oh Ha Ha!

This of couse is nothing but spin: Clearly the adults who sail these in championship events don't feel cool next to the feva'ish trendy plastic fantastics. The cost of a new plastic mirror more than eclipses the cost of a wooden spar and this drive to turn the family favourite into a racing machine almost certainly will shoot it in the foot. A Mirror at the end of the day simply isn't a "cool" racing boat however well it performs in practice and I suspect the new buyer will prefer to spend this kind of money on a generic Topper type Skiff.

So perhaps this part of our sailing heritage is sailing our way. Certainly if you want to sail it in its original form it is. Should the doors of this assotiation be opened to welcome those poor bereft boats with a "proper" rig. Those of us who have small careless childen may welcome such a class for the to cut there teeth on as they will surely learn more sailing and social skills from this classic two handed Brother/sister combination than simply splashing about on an overpriced topper which for my family seems to be regarded as little more than a diving/swimming platform!

This specimen at present comes in at @ £100 For this money you can also buy a 20+ yr old badly damaged Topper (Hull only!)

Is this a fair contest!!

[Rupert]

Kathryn Charlie and Pippa have raced our old Mirror at Roadford, and even with Charlie at the helm some of the time (age 5 at the time) came mid fleet! I hope that our "new" mirror will be coming to Netley with the Moth. She was launched in 1984, but the build started in 83...does she qualify? Doesn't make much difference as we'll be bringing her mainly for the others to cruise in as I'm being antisocial in the Moth, but it would be nice for her to be able to compete some of the time. With Gaff rig, of course...though I have got a needlespar mast that would cut down a treat...

[jonathan]

I had a look at this chaps list of goods for sale which includes "vintage hammers". Probably meant for sending this one on its worthy way.

My club has a good number of these and they are being modernised with the new bermudan rig and the addition of the bells and whistles that now go with this boat. They do have a lot of character and they certaily offer a good grounding for a dinghy sailor but with so many of these available why buy a leaky tub like this? Once passed a bouyancy test?? Yeah, in 1966 and since then on a foggy day in November with the certifier sitting the club nursing a hot cup of cocoa. And he has broken the set up and selling the trailer searately!

If someone wants one of these I say spend a bit of money and save the bother of fixing something up and let this ebay dealer use it for a flower bed or put on a decent show on Nov 5th! Still, a fool and his money ......... I feel sorry for the buyer who will be so disillusioned and chuck it away in disgust and be lost to the sport and turn to golf.

[Michael Brigg]

In my experience the best use for a golf stick is when you cut the head of it and use the handle as a tiller extension.

This site surely exists for the disillusioned, sometimes desparate, and often downright deluded dinghy owner. My wife would certainly think so.

However we have all learnt over the years that it is a great and glorious thing to have wet feet for the sake of the class. My £75 firefly that I bought in 19whenever taught me that we do not need the disposable society that we live in and fostered a desire to fix things. Something that comes in handy when the washing machine starts to leak on a friday night (Bit of a theme there?)

So this boat may leak, alot even. The point is should it be preserved.

For the money it's reasonable value. You don't need a maths PhD to remember the number and if it needs work then that's a lesson in how to love your boat. Its sail plan gives some lessons in the history of the older sail plans and for the more advanced there's an opportunity to learn the delights of a "proper" spinnaker instead of charging into an assymetric charger.

The best racing takes place in slow boats. You tend to be close enough to the opposition to be able to talk to them, and even influence their manouvres. Fast boats just have processional sailpasts.

[davidh]

Michael,

Right now (for my many sins) I'm working on a ten part series for Dinghy Sailing Magazine on the 'Ten most influential BRITISH dinghy designs'. Number 10 will be in the issue out in a fortnights time, these will then count their way down until Number 1 is in the Dinghy Show issue next March.

Many of the points that you raised in your note are spot on with the considerations that I've been involved in recently as the list has started to take shape. It has been quite some exercise, not least because it makes on think hard about some of the boats in a much wider context - did they change the dinghy scene and if so - how?

All this is a long intro into thinking about the Mirror on ebay and the £99 starting prices. Should this boat be saved? An even trickier question that! At the heart of the problem is the inescapeable fact that there are far more boats out there that need saving than there are sailors wanting them, be they sad and deluded, or inspired, talented restorers.

Which brings us back to the starting question of the ebay Mirror. Are there any other over riding circumstances as to why it should be this boat that is saved and restored and not one of the many other Mirrors from the very early days that can be picked up - and might have less work required?

I tried to start a dialogue along these lines with some of the 'powers that be' in dinghy racing but got no where. We then touched on the subject here on the Forum, when Alan Williams highlighted the plight of 'Great Bear' which was for sale recently on ebay.

Is it a fair statement to make, that a boat can be important (as, Alan assures us, that Great Bear would be) but not, per se, truely significant. A great big grey area and a huge minefield for the unwary.

I covered the 'ebay' phenomena recently and found that yes, it has revolutionised how boats are bought and sold..... but I do wonder at some of the people who bid on what may well in the end be total piles of expensive firewood. Dinghy sailing, at least at club level, is loosing numbers, though not yet to the point of a crisis. The other point that was made, that people who do buy rubbish and then 'drop out', is itself as significant as the very valid points you made at the beginning.

Does this suggest where dinghy sailing is 'going'? Over to you on that one!!

Still, a great subject for debating

D

[clibb]

"Dinghy sailing, at club level, is losing numbers" True, yes, and a subject of great interest at Frensham, though Cadets still rule, with huge numbers. It's not getting the kids into the sport, it's keeping them there. So many other things to do, and calls on their time. One hobby-horse, however, is the current way we teach sailing. At Frensham we do a combined level 1 and level 2 course over five days. the result is that the pupil has nothing to aspire to, and doesn't have enough experience to go racing. We are debating doing level 1 as a stand-alone, then requiring the pupil(s) to do 6 or 7 weeks sailing in GP's they can borrow from the club, before doing level 2. They then have a little experience to build on in a 'beginning racing' course.

Any opinions welcome.

Nick

[jpa_wfsc]

"Dinghy sailing, at club level, is losing numbers" True, .. .. .. We are debating doing level 1 as a stand-alone, then requiring the pupil(s) to do 6 or 7 weeks sailing in GP's they can borrow from the club, before doing level 2. They then have a little experience to build on in a 'beginning racing' course.

Any opinions welcome.

Nick

I have long thought that what really looses people, is that they buy a boat, join a club, go sailing, get wet (and maybe scarred) and then just leave the boat in the park for years... we certainly have a few at WSC. I think I agree about the splitting of Levels one and two - but have not tried it yet at WSC. However I am trying to entice the aforementioned try-it-once and gave up brigade with informal drop in sessions. Think I have saved one individual so far but no one turned up at all today.

RS seems to be at least trying to avoid the syndrome by offering buyers of their products at some training in how to use 'em! (at the 'RS academy') Could CVRDA? We have several RYA instructors and at least one senior instructor (me) who could run a 'try sailing a classic boat' day. Probably not this year as it would take time to plan and promote. But it could be done on the Saturday of Nettly 2009?

On the subject of Mirrors - they really are a design classic and have introduced many many people to the sport. 43069 'Alice' was built by my sisters myself and my Father in 1972 and is still in use by the family. My children bought 'Sara' for pocket money a couple of years ago - such a delight! They are not vintage, they are not 'lost' but they are classics!

[Michael Brigg]

So dinghy sailing is loosing numbers.

I go back to the comment I made about talking to other boats in the fleet. This is possible in most of the older classics because they were slow enough to make short courses a practical proposition. The vast proportion of club sailors are confined to landlocked cities and sail on smallish lakes or even rivers. On this kind of water a 49er or for that matter even a Byte (or a L***r) is going to be somewhat overpowered, but it is boats like these at present which are enjoying all the media interest and newcomers to the sport (and young people) are being persuaded to buy unsuitable craft by images that emphasise the power and athletisim of a boat. Most of us tend to like the idea of owning Alha Romeo Spyder (The version Richard Gere drove in the Graduate of course) or perhaps a TR6 rather than a Fiat Polo.

Single males may enjoy a blast in an Int14 but soon discover such boats (with exceptions of course) are not well suited to sustaining a long term relationship. If you want to keep your girlfried interested in you and your mates there needs to be a suitable number of likeminded WAGS to chat to in the ladies changing room.

The main reason for declining numbers is the failure of many clubs to engage with the problem of fleet selection. One ore two members might lobby strongly for a class and get it on the starting sequence in favour of an "old fashioned" class perhaps with a generational fluctuation in its fleet numbers. This has happened to the firefly at my club at Itchenor. Since then having kept a fleet of @30-40 fireflies for about 30years the small 2-handed dinghy fleet is split between 420's, RS200's Mirrors (for the younger members), and variously 29'ers, Audi4000 and lasers. I do not think this has improved the racing in dinghies and the club has fallen back into a tradition for Keelboat racing and a large mainly travelling fleet of Int14's for the Rogue male contingent.

Keelboats remain the strongest influence in the club because partly they require local racing only and do not travel well unless you have an HGV licence, but more importantly because by definition they require alot of input to the social structure of the club if you sail one.

People leave sailing clubs not because of the loss of interest in sailing but because they are finding they are not making friends. Children (like dogs) bring families together, and a Two handed children's boat is vital if this is to happen. The emphasis in coaching schemes to put children into single handed boat such as Optimists etc may be good for the Olympic medal table but it doesn't always serve the grass roots level with which I believe the majority of this forums members can identify. What has replaced the secure and comfortable Duckling?...The overpowered Taz or single handed Topper.

[clibb]

Dustin Hoffman, wasn't it ??

Nick

[JB9]

So many issues raised.

At BBSC a fortnightly event for junior members is held, called Pirates and Bucaneers, which is mainly fun orientated but has meant a few children progressing to a youth race squad, including my son. There are plenty of on water games, lots of club oppies and toppers and a few RS Fevas. This year the number attending is capped at 35 as beyond this it is hard to cope. I am now trying to cordinate the next stage which is to introduce the RS Feva group (race squad) to open meetings at other clubs. The whole structure does have some progression for those children who want it.

I own a Mirror which I sail with my son on windy days. He normally sails a club RS Feva. The former may take more skill to go fast but the latter is more fun (not for me though) and easy to look after. The Mirror came from a dinghy racing family, has the old rig but is otherwise race ready and cost £300.00. The RS would cost around £2000 for a used example in good order. If the club fleet were all Mirrors would the children have less fun? No.

There are no easy answers. If i sailed at Itchenor, and I wish I did, I would be tempted by an XOD, Swallow, Victory even but J9 would go nicely there too.

I think the idea of a try a classic/training type event is a good one.

[Michael Brigg]

Dustin Hoffman, wasn't it ??

Yeah I knew that!.....B****r.

I must have been thinking of Pretty Women.

[chris]

Dwindling numbers and fleets..
Shearwater SC has always been mixed fleet racing , so pursuits and handicap point races. I don't think we would exist if we only insisted on fleet racing. So it means that everyone can sail the class they choose and can also join in with every race there is. It keeps the club together as a society (you don't just turn up for class race at a certain time and then go home.) It has also meant that the older classes (many suit the water anyway) survive well. That's why Shearwater members are CVRDA-biased. remarkably few of the most modern designs make their apperance here. As someone has pointed out above they don't suit the more restricted waters anyway .

Youngsters and the CVRDA.
A couple of years ago a Frensham Pond youngster crewed for me in Iska and seemed quite 'fired up' by the idea of vintage boats . He asked me how much the boat was worth and when I told him that you could pick them up for somewhere between nothing and the cost of a knackered topper he was amazed because he thought it was worth many thousand! so perception is one thing. Skill perhaps is the other. whenI was a craft teacher 30years ago we taught skill in wood and metalwork, 99% of that 's gone it seems now.

[davidh]

Chris,

At the heart of the problems regarding the overall picture for sailing is, yes, the children issue.

The RYA have run quite a detailed study on all of this and found that if children are so called 'legacy kids'..... ie, at least one parent is a sailor, then there is a good chance that they too will sail. The situation is NOT so good for getting all 'new blood' into the sport, for it is just not happening in sufficient numbers.

Meanwhile - at club level, the 'demographics' say it all. Too many clubs are being kept afloat by a slowly decreasing population of 'baby boomers' - who are now 50+. A point is fast approaching where in quite a sort space of time, a whole generation of sailors willbe hanging up their wet suit - for good.

This will not only change how clubs run (for who else will be painting the loos in the winter) but will have a big impact on the classes sailed. Hornets, Albacore, Kestrels, Shearwaters to name a few classes could all be 'at risk' as the old stalwarts drop away - and the rush of new sailors to keep the class alive fails to materialise (as they are all off sailing in RS 800s and the like).

If this sounds a bit like "enjoy the sport we have, whilst we still have it) then, well, no great surprise!!

D

[Michael Brigg]

I'm not so sure its quite as grim as that. You need to look at how busy the Grim reaper and the baby boomers are. The average duration of membership in a club is going to be @ 25-35 years perhaps. This means that a club with say 210members, average 30yr membership will have 7 members shuffling off the mortal coil each year, and will maintain it's membership with 7 new members (including births and marriages) per year.

There is a high demographic of yachtsmen coming from professions where geographical mobility has become a neccessity, and modern society tends to push young graduates of to new pastures and this is where a crisis might arise. Several active sailors departing to university can devastate even a large highly successful fleet, and there needs to be a new approach to addressing this problem. A much wider use of flexible reciprocal membership arrangements would surely be benificial especially if publicised locally. Clearly a handicap fleet is not difficult to manage where visiting/temporary residents are concerned but for clubs that have exclusively class races then there might need to be some mechanism for loaning of boats, especially the ones gathering rainwater and hiding in the long grass and nettles.

We are of course wandering in our wonderfully tangential way away from the original thread which was more to do with what might define a classic boat from a well established class. A bit like a car with a personalised or desirable numberplate. (Now theres another thread! Any "good sailnumbers" out there?)

I picked this Mirror because at Less than 5000, it must have been one of the originals, equivalent to a firefly with less than 100 or a split screen morris minor.

[jonathan]

Going back to what I said, why bother with this leaky tub? The Mirror class boasts 75,000 examples plus no doubt a few hunderd unregistered ones. Its a one design. No individuality. There are hundreds for sale at any one time. This one would be preservation for preservations sake. Just because its an early one is not sufficient motive in my view.

Its a bit like saying anything from the "good old days" has to be preserved. I work as a surveyor and often hear and read about preserving heritage both social and industrial and I have to respond like slums, open sewers and dark satanic mills along with cholera, diptheria and TB that went with them. I hear from time to time people say we should hark back because we all have it too easy. Smoke, grime and industrial diseases. Sorry no, I would not be alive had we not had advances. Because memory is very selective there are no good old days only today and if we are to preseve things then we must be selective. Indeed, very selective.

Preserve examples of a small class of boat for sure but whilst there are thousands of very good wood Mirrors sailing and still being built why not choose something really worthwhile. The guy selling is an e-dealer, and good luck to him, but I really do not think this one is worth the effort.

Rant over.