Singlehanded challenge

[Silverwood]

In the future it might become necessary to reassess this decision if too many 'out of character' boats start taking an interest in the cvrda old wing, but for the moment its just great to see these wonderful dinghies which have become totally outpaced within their own classes but can still have great handicap racing with the cvrda old wingFrom the CVRDA website home page....

[Pat]

We could start a new wing especially for the ineligible wooden boats over 25 years old. Some of our events aren't exactly oversubscribed so including them as a seperate group at some would be a positive boost to numbers.

[Nigel]

Hi all,

It does seem something of an anomaly. An old original woodie phantom is much more "classic" than a Pisces or Tonic whose main claims to fame are being lost classes (i.e having failed to make the grade for whatever reason). Doubly unfair on the phantom as it presumably is nowhere near competitive in a modern phantom fleet. Other fleets have addressed this by setting up their own "oldies" events but in the absence of that, I guess the question for us is whether this kind of boat is of interest and in keeping with the CVRDA. I think the idea of a new wing has merit.

I can understand the concerns over amending the constitution but we are going to have to face up to it over the next few years as with the constitution as now, with 25 year old development class boats, we will soon be faced with carbon, mylar sails, assymetrics and even foiling.


Nigel

[davidh]

Nigel,

I think that you've highlighted something that has been talked about in the past, but is now in danger of landing in our lap before we're really prepared to deal with it.

Looking at my Merlin Rocket records, next year boats such as the later NSM variants and some of the early Ian Holt designs would become eligible for the CVRDA - the foam Omega boats are there already!

So this creates a bit of a bizzare situation, where a Smokers is no longer competitive in the 'classic' fleet............ even with a little extra help from the handicap manipulations.

In the same way, there are some very good boats from the early 1980s that are acceptable without question( a Parker 25 505 as an example) or a Rowsell Fireball. Hmmmnnnnn - some good boats there. Worse, a Howlett 1b International 14 is now fully eligible, get one of those sailed well and you'd find out just how quick a 1980 boat can go!

But back to the singlehanders! By the early 1980s, both Finns and OKs were offering some fine, fast boats. Now I know that I have been known to take the P*ss out of the Finns, even more so from the OKs that sail in the CVRDA fleet, for the crime of handicap banditry. In this email though I'll take it all back - the OK is a damn fine boat and when it is well sailed, as we've often seen in our events, then they richly deserve the results that come their way. (worried that I'm not making a point? - be patient, I'll get there).

Park the Phantom for a minute and instead focus on the Contender. A 1966 design on paper, but the reality was that Bob Miller was working on the first stab at this back in 1965, with a boat called the Dorothy. This was a hard chined, skiff life beast that Bob Miller said 'sucked' in light airs. So, ever pragmatic, he took a lift from his favourite hull form, the FD, STILL called it the Dorothy and then thought about sailing it in the 1966 Trials. He needed a sponsor for the cash to get from down under to La Baule, a sailcloth maker chipped in as they had a new product, 'Contender' sailcloth - and the name Dorothy was dropped and the boat renamed. So there you have it: A documented, supportable, clear cut case that says that actually, the Contender is a fully eligible, 1965 boat that should be welcomed with open arms.

Now there is me...and Nessa.....another guy at Netley with the old red boat that he sailed in the 2007 classic event...... we could all turn up - and go nowhere. With the exception of Netley and maybe Corus, most of the CVRDA events would see the Contender struggle around, well behind those well sailed OKs and Finns, even on the water, let alone on handicap. Sad but true, unless you've got long beats, enough breeze to trapeze upwind and on a beam reach - but not so much wind as to make the boat a handful, the Contender is a dog at handicap sailing.

Put a Contender up against one of those newly eligible Merlins and there is not a lot of point of taking it off the trailer...so I think that case can rest.

Now let us look at the Phantom. There is no arguement that this is too modern a boat, nor is it anything of a lost class. BUT....... for the first 10- 15 years, the hulls were often stitch and glue ply and the rigs were all over the place. THen, something happened; lighter, stiffer hulls appeared, the rigs got sorted (not to mention being an early convert to carbon) and the boat was transformed. At Netley, our current Commodore had an oldish Phantom and did ok - but then he got Tim Coombs to build him a new boat, stepped a Wavelength carbon rig and just sailed off to win everything that there was to compete for.

Can the older boats compete with this, assuming there is no handicap adjustment? Forget it - two different boats almost. The Phantom Class are aware of this and are trying to be inclusive of the older boats but - should they be welcomed within the CVRDA as well?

Maybe, as a suggestion, with the 10 year anniversary coming up, the time might be right to consider a review of the who/what/where. A change maybe that takes the view that you are 'in' unless you are 'out' (rather than being 'out' unless you 'in'). That way we can open ourselves up to...Mirror 14s..... and who else? If you take the view that you will rule out SMODs for now (unless in by invitation.....a doubtful move in the current climate, then how many boats ARE we talking about)

Marauder
Javelin
Miracle
Streaker
Phantom
Wanderer........

There might be one or two others, but nothing that fills me with dread that the superb work done by the founders of the CVRDA would be swamped by an influx of new boats. The worry of an influx of 'nearly modern' development classes has to be a much greater risk.

Well, I got there in the end and made the point, but I would stress that these are only a very personal viewpoint. It matters not if we change or stay as we are, the Association is stronger for just having the debate!

Sorry for the length of response

David

[Rupert]

You missed the Laser in that list of boats that become eligible...

[davidh]

Rupert,

no I didn't - I specifically excluded SMODs - check out just abovethe list of boats. I think that's a fair stance for the CVRDA to take (for now).

I must admit to something of a dislike of exclusions - I'd far rather that people were 'in' unless decided otherwise. But I would draw the line at SMODs.

But how about a compromise!

The CVRDA is 10 years old old next year. Each 10th anniversary, the bar goes 'up' by 1/2 the distance - 5 years. Changing 1965 to 1970 and ignoring the SMODs would actually make quite a bit of sense - looked at from one perspective! But again, it's only a viewpoint, roll on the full debate

D

[Nessa]

Oh! How did I miss this? Now you see, if it were allowed I would be outside even now, strapping phantom k88 to the road trolley and bringing her to Baltic Wharf tomorrow (with the contender remaining firmly in the boat park on the grounds of it being not at all sensible to sail such a boat at BW.)

I still sail the Phantom Menace with the original tin rig (no lowers, no angled mast step, mast foot still in the original position) and so have little or no hope against the modern boats which don't even look like the same boat. I sail with a newer sail (867!!) because the old one (with a measurer's mark of 1974) was unusable.

This means that really I have no one to sail against. If I sail a club race then I suffer with the handicap of the modern phantoms. Clearly I'm not sailing this boat to win, but it would be fun to pitch her against some other golden oldies.

No, strictly speaking it isn't a lost class, but how many more like it will there still be?

Here she is:

http://s255.photobucket.com/albums/hh13 ... 88_photos/

[Rupert]

Hull material has always been open, and I hope always will be. Anti old GRP boat people tend towards the snobbish...something we have generally managed to aviod, I hope. A 1982 Kestrel qualifies as a pre 1965 design and will sail with the Old Fleet. A Pisces qualifies under none of the above catagories, but because there is nowhere else for an owner of a defunct class to go for advice and a spot of racing. In reality, I cannot think of any who have raced a post 1965 design lost class at any events, which is why when the Tonic and Pisces came to be owned by forum users I could see the possibilities of getting them and others together. I would welcome uncompetitive Phantoms to that event, but they have a strong class association of their own who should be supporting the older boats.
David, I'm not sure how excluding SMODs is inclusive? The Firefly was a SMOD and sits quite happily in the framework. I can see the case for the boats with no support network of their own, but can't really see why the Wanderer, Streaker or Phantom actually need the cvrda?

[PeterV]

There probably is a case for including a class for those older boats that have been totally outclassed within their own classes. However this means that it will have to be selective and this will probably mean it's too difficult to organise. The Phantom is clearly in this category, the Laser, Kestrel and Javelin are not. But then neither is a Firefly, Enterprise or GP14, so it's understandable that some people would not be happy with a ruling that allows some boats in but not others.

I suppose the challenge is to keep the emphasis of the CVRDA on encouraging old wooden boats to be preserved and raced. Other categories could be included but should be regarded as an exception. Therefore a Tonic for example fits as an exception but shows why a disgruntled owner with an early Laser could feel a bit peeved at being excluded.

[PeterV]

Sorry, another point. The owner of a lost class can be allocated a PY number and race in any handicap race. He's not going to suffer like an old Finn, Merlin or 14 from being forced to race on the published PY of a modern boat, so therefore there isn't much reason for them joining the CVRDA races.

[Nessa]

It is true that the phantom class is trying to introduce classic racing, but I think they have decided to allow self drainers and epoxy built boats, so mine is already outclassed.

[Nigel]

We do seem to be faced with two opposing problems - how to include some boats that are currently excluded (e.g woodie phantoms) and possibly exclude some boats that are eligible (carbon i14s etc).

My thoughts (for what they are worth): We have wings for vintage, classic and old with a date cut off. Anything that meets those criteria are eligible for those classses (SMOD or not). We have the lost classes wing for those design cul de sacs Rupert and I like to sail - Tonics, Beachcombers, Pisces. Concept 302s etc.

To answer the first problem above, we could include some older boats by forming a new wing e.g. n years old and left behind by significant class development. This definition would seem to me to automatically exclude post 1965 SMODs.

Answering the second problem seems to me to be a little trickier. Logically, we would need to agree a cut off date or design on a class by class basis. This seems like a fair bit of work and a recipe for endless arguments but I cannot see another way to go. Doing nothing does not seem to be an option.

This does seem to be quite a divisive topic.

[Nigel]

In reality, I cannot think of any who have raced a post 1965 design lost class at any events

I have occasionally turned up with the Beachcomber. It is totally uncompetitive below a F6 and by then everyone else has gone home. It did take to the water at BW last year. This class is so lost I have not been able to discover whether it is pre or post 1965 but it is fair to say that its strange design did attract some interest. Wooden boats are great but we should not ignore the herioc failures that have become lost.

[Rupert]

Hmm long, post I just wrote seems to have vanished. Rambling anyway. Main points
1) cvrda has a constitution, which it races under
2) this thread started as an idea for getting singlehanded lost classes together to have a race and a beer. If classes who feel that their associations aren't doing enough to encourage classic racing want to join in, that is fine by me.
3)The boats racing would be sailing under the umbrella of the cvrda for company, support and logistical reasons, and so there are more people to have a beer with. If a boat doesn't qualify for the main cvrda prizes ( I don't feel the Tonic does) then it would only be racing for the challenge prize. If, as is likely, the fleet is very small, then everyone would start together - challenge and cvrda - and any pre 1965 design boats would qualify for both.

[davidh]

Nessa,

you'd have been mighty lonely - Baltic Wharf was today................

I'm sat here, glass of wine, working on the Contender history, thinking what a complete and utter 'burke' I am - talk about one step forward and two back. I changed last winter from a Contender to a Phantom when the weight crept over 90kgs but with finances already parlous, I ended up sourcing a hull one week, a rig the next, the sail after that, a rudder still later.

The trouble is we've some good Phantoms at Netley, so 868 is up against it. I can sail well and get amongst them, but the reality is that I'm lost for boatspeed. In short, 868 is no longer competitive. I've been thinking of ditching it and trying to get back to Contendering, if I did that then the harsh fact is that if the breeze was light, I'd probably stay ashore. But then with the Phantom, if the breeze comes up, you realise just how hard a boat it is to sail well - as you slog upwind the mantra is almost continuous " I wish I was in a Contender"............

I've enjoyed the CVRDA, you'd have to work hard to find a nicer group of people (very similar in a lot of ways to a group of the older Contender sailors) so the last thing I'd want to do is to rock the boat.

Now that the toys have to go, I'm torn between the two loves of my life - Merlins and Contenders....and the practicality of a Phantom, a boat that carries weight, goes well in most conditions, yet (and here I hate to say it, the Phantom Class will string me up for this) is hardly the most exciting of boats to sail. Two seasons ago I sailed a Blaze for a year and it went like the proverbial s**t of a shovel and I had a great time pot hunting. Then, I borrrowed a Contender and in 30 mins of sailing had more of a 'grin factor' than in a whole busy season of sailing.

So what is a 90KG+ sailor to do. Finn? (err...thanks but no thanks), Phantom? good plan but......not if it means leaving the Association and heading off to only play with other old Phantoms.

Answers in a plain wrapper to..............................

D