Singlehanded challenge

[Pat]

One suggestion would be to include the lost classes as normal and then have a joint event with the Phantom 'vintage' wing (just as we do with the Merlins), preferably at somewhere we need a numbers boost and as a kick start for their 'vintage' wing. If enough boats turn up they get a seperate start. Then they could run some of their own events by giving the 'vintage' wing their own start at main class events.
That way we are encouraging the old boats without changing our constitution.

[Nessa]

I think that would be phantastic - I would bring my Menace and I'd hope others would come too.

[alan williams]

Pat Great suggestion and one that I would support.
Al W.

[Ancient Geek]

Whilst I do not handicap race I have a deal of sympathy for those who by circumstance or inclination do.
It seems to me in the special circustances of the CVRDA what you need to do is to take a leaf out of the Jockey Club and appoint a handicapper, and then following the Broads Cruiser Class in Norfolk, the Jockey Club and Golf amend handicaps by performance and yes maybe have two or several sets for conditions and crews like they had in the 60's in NH Racing one for when Arkle was racing (He was handicapped an extra 4 stones!) one for not.
Anything to keep these special heritage boats on the water and out of a museum or off a bonfire!

[Silverwood]

It seems the cvrda already have constitutional permission to adjust handicaps as necessary depending on modernity of rig. A system that took account of local conditions as with Hayling Island s.c. and some of the inland clubs could be incorporated when meetings are held at clubs with locally adjusted handicaps (eg Osprey v. Firefly on open/restricted waters). Handicapping is supposed to provide a level playing field for differentn boat designs only though, not helm expertise!

[roger]

All, great discussion and lots of very valid points. This seems to be more about where does the CVRDA go from here than about a single handed event. Next year is our 10th anniversary and its probably high time things were reviewed.
The committee are very much aware of your oppinions and will be discussing it over the next few weeks/months.
We cannot make any changes until the AGM in August but welcome all (constructive) comments.

Roger

ps carry on but play nicely

[Michael Brigg]

This thread seems to have developed into a discussion about the future direction of the CVRDA. Now that really has to be the biggest hijack ever!!

I took a look at the constitution page and particularly the mission statement of the CVRDA and it really makes any decisions quite straightforward. While I was on that page I also looked at criteria for membership of the CVRDA and there seem to be a couple of anomalies.

Firstly membership of the CVRDA doesn't seem to be separate from membership of the forum. There are specific references to ownership of an eligeable boat and then there is the thorny question of subscription. This is not at all expensive at just £10 but there doesn't seem to be much clarity as to how the assotiation go about collecting it. I have not yet managed to sail at an event so I have only met DavidH so far (Worthy of another string that one? (titled perhaps "DavidH,... and other animals.") I presume that some sort of racing/entry fee is collected at various events and membership is perhaps paid/achieved at that time.

So as a non racing (yet) and non(?) (yet) full member, (I haven't paid a membership and am not sure how I would go about doing so,) here goes.

The Mission statement is quite clear about the purpose of the assotiation being to foster a celebration of sailing dinghy designs and to encourage the continued active enjoyment of these craft. The statement also note the need to preserve the history of all dinghies and the commitment to a small boat register to this end. The statement is inclusive rather than exclusive and specifically does not exclude any specific construction technique. Indeed to do so would negate the whole intention of the assotiation. I have no doubt that when the Laser is 25 years old and someone turns up with K1 or Ben's Olympic hull we will all gather round the bonfire and ...sorry I mean welcome them in to the community of Classic craft.

Enjoyment of Classic boats is not just about racing them although this is an important part of the fun. It is also about wearing our individual anoraks. Wether that is building up new layers of hot moulded ply or scarfing in a new bow stem, or just using Cotton sails and not feeling resentful that this makes you non competitive the assotiation is there to celebrate that ideal.

So what of the future. Surely a new wing must arise at some point and some capacity to allow development of the assotiation must be built in or like its Lost Classes it to will fall below the horizon.

My own vote would be for a new wing with considerable flexibility built into its definition. I would call it "Modern Classics" and let the definition open up a whole new line of glorious debate with every new application for membership.

[Ed]

Some good points.

the membership question is a thorny one.

Originally we had a set subscription fee. Our constitution was built around a RYA template (thanks to Andy-Pegasus, Rob-Jollyboat, Rupert-Firefly and many others) which made it almost mandatory.

Problem was that as we were set on only having communication by email, it was going to be hard to collect the money without writing letters etc. So we decided to take a membership fee at Roadford (subsequently at the Nats) and allow donations at other events.

It has always been pretty ad hoc.

This meant it was very unclear what you actually got for your money.....as everything was available for free on website and we did not want to restrict attendance at events to only members (hence asking for a donation).

Of course, as you say, in the end, the only qualification for membership was "Are you interested in Classic Dinghies?" and to be part of the 'gang'....you simply had to turn up on the Forum.

This of course 'could' all be a recipe for disaster.

But....the CVRDA has always managed to go on quite happily in a very un-together and care-free way and it is this very aspect of the CVRDA which many like. Comments at events like:

"I thought the first race was at 10.30?" are often met with "But that is CVRDA time - could be anytime, as soon as everyone is ready" are common.

And although great effort goes to provide a good handicapping system, most members take all racing and results with a grin and a giggle not really expecting it to all make total sense...or even be really that 'fair'......as long as they have fun in the process.

I don't think the CVRDA needs be too worried about this. Remember that for many it is this very 'loose' approach that makes it fun. No-one takes it too seriously and those that do take it seriously, may win the events, but often lose on the overall fun of the day.

cheers

eib

[Michael Brigg]

Thanks Ed, thats pretty much how I though it worked. I looked at the "Helmet cam" clip of one of the events, Roadford I think, and the pre match work up seemed pretty similar to The America's cup. Walking around having a jolly good look at how everybody else is rigging their boat. The difference is of course that nobody takes you to court for doing so!

Clearly the start time is the start of the event and the race is merely a part of that event.

I was only really raising questions about qualification for membership because some way back in this thread there seemed to be some anxiety as to wether presumptions were being made about the CVRDA constitution and how it might change without proper constitutional process.

Talking of proper constitutional process I remember how this nearly killed off the London Corinthian SC when a "Hostile takeover" of the club tried, and nearly managed, to assett strip the club and selling off their "club house" in Cowes. (A bit like what happened to York City FC)

This forum is a very civilised and supportive site and I would hate to see it move in the direction of some of the more "professional" racing boat sites where written slang and jargon, literary equivalents dare I say of syboliths cause a fragmentation of the site and ultimately a loss of interest and apathy.

However as the constitution presently stands no changes can be made without quorate decisions at a meeting of designated members who have to be appropriately and unambiguously defined. To allow the assotiation to evolve easily this may need some minor tweaking if only to avoid future difficulties, for example if the IFAS decided to invite a designated class from the CVRDA for olympic nomination, (going back again to Rupert and Gary's synchronised firefly restoration event) it has already been pointed out in a recent thread that they don't take kindly to breakaway federations!

The Americans I am told never bend the rules, the only break them. In contrast we should be British about this and continue to rig our rules to allow a maximumun amount of pre-bending. (Thats David's specialty I think?)

[Rupert]

I just wanted to go sailing with some other lost boats, to get a race, not challenge the mission of the cvrda...
Membership is very simple, as far as I can see - own an old boat and find the forum...in fact, it could be that we have thousands of members - they just don't know it!
The only bits of the cvrda I can see are in need of looking at are the more modern development boats and the outdated non qualifying one designs. For the former, there is a possibility that as time goes by they could start to dominate things. In which case we will need to look at it again. Otherwise, a handicapping system where you have to work a damn sight harder to win in a 1980 Merlin than in a 1946 one seems to be, in general, working.
As for the other, there are enough views on here already, including mine...

[Ed]

Right with you Rupe!

As much as I like the Forum......and I do!!!

I do hope that the decisions of the committee and those taken at the AGM, always better reflect the opinions of those that get their bums wet sailing classic boats rather than those who sit on their bums all day chatting on the Forum.

Now, I like doing both! but admit that one I do rather less than I would like and the other I do a bit more than I like.

I am sure that even after all the chat on the forum that we wish to keep the CVRDA as an organisation that strives to be as inclusive as it can within its rules rather than spends time trying to work out ways of being more exclusive.

Personally, I would more rather spend the little free time that I have (not sitting in front of this damn computer) to go sailing rather than try and re-write the constitution.

For myself, if someone wants to race a 1975 Phantom with tin mast with us, I am not going to be the one to tell him to go away.....but if someone turns up with a 1983 Laser.....I just might be.

But that is just me and I do empathise with many of the points made.

cheers

eib

[davidh]

Ed and Rupert (but all the rest of the usual gang on here - plus the casual watchers)

I was well aware when I weighed in with my 5p worth (not that 5p is worth anything at all today...when it would have bought you 20 black jacks) that my current Phantom is just a boat too far for Cvrda purposes. Yes, in Phantom terms, it is a classic but in how we view the world, it's only 22 years old and therefore not 'in' - nor would I try to make it so.

I do think though that the recent exchanges have been well worth all the effort and input. For a start, the air has been cleared and then more importantly, at the end of the season and with sailing facing some very uncertain challenges in the year (s) ahead, it's good that we all keep very much 'in touch and together'.

I've a sneaky feeling that the CVRDA will become ever more important over the next 3-5 years..................

I would have suggested that the next topic be the idea that the association 'support' one of the dinghy weeks (Chichester, Rock, Pyfleet [where???????????] Abersoch etc etc) but then someone would make the comment that the topic had been hijcked!!!!!

hohohoho!!

D

[Nessa]

Firstly, I have to say that as a newcomer I have found this forum to be fantastically helpful as I labour towards the relaunch of my ancient i14. People have been really helpful without being patronising and I have really felt wonderfully welcome.

Nextly, it may be that I can't get to too many meetings with the above boat, mostly due to doing supposedly serious sailing with the sharp plastic pointy thing I pour too much money into, but that being said, the people in here and the laid back attitude serve as a fabulous antidote to the serious stuff and remind me that sailing is meant to be fun. This means I will get to events as and when I can and intend to have as much fun as possible!

I would happily pay my tenner just to use the forum because of all the free advice and info, irrespective of whether I could get to many events.

It would be nice, if ever I were crewless, to be able to bring my phantom to an event, because I am pretty sure it is the oldest phantom in the country(*) and as such I think it is pretty special, but I'm certainly not after any prizes (which may be just as well!) nor do I want to upset anyone.


* a sail and mast etc numbered k87 recently sold on ebay, does any one know where it went or to whom?

[Ed]

I hope that you would be made most welcome....

whatever boat you turn up with

eib

[Garry R]

Firstly (Michael Briggs) I never thought that I would see York City FC mentioned on the CVRDA site (is it a classic or a lost club?!!) having seen them once when I was 12 years old (grandfather was a season ticket hlder way back and was on the goal line seating and swore that the ball was over the line in the semi-final of the FA cup against Spurs in 19** which they lost) . Have looked after YCFC from afar ever since with hopes they may escape from the Blue Square last season an now this.

Secondly if we re-rigged the constitution would there be less tension or more. Looking at it from the Merlin point of view the restricted classes provide the biggest difficulties due to the occasional leaps in performance some designs have provided rather than a gradual improvement. I think that CVRDA does a good and fair job of handicapping our participants and the friendly sailing and the general ethos is just fine. As oldies (boats and sailors) we should by now realise that change is never for the best!!