Changes to Constitution for 10year anniversary?

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Ed
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Changes to Constitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Ed »

Dear members,

Over the last few years there has been much talk about the need to change the 'rules' that describe the different 'wings' under which the cvrda organises its racing.

The only way this can be done is by someone bringing a draft amendment of the rules to the AGM for us all to vote on. If memory serves, this vote would then need to have over 2/3 of the attending (and quorate) membership.

As this is the 10th year of the association, now may well be a good time to think about whether our rules still support us by providing the best racing possible. I am not sure whether this 'may' mean a few 'small' changes to dates etc. or a major re-write of all the wings, or indeed no changes at all.

Lets discuss:

First a few rules of play ....

This discussion is about 'boats'. Please refrain from any reference to 'people', perceived 'cliques' or 'geographical areas'.

Don't look for 'problems' for the sake of 'finding them'. i.e. lets not fix what ain't broken

Can we keep in mind what the CVRDA is trying to do - Our overall missions of getting old boats on the water, racing with like minded sailors. If you need a 'reminder' please do look at the constitution that is available from the front page of site.

Be chill and remember that this is a 'public' place - Potential cvrda members will read this. We are a friendly organisation - lets make sure we look that way, here on the forum.

To Remind, the current constitution rules are these:

3. BOAT CLASSIFICATIONS (WINGS)

(a) Vintage Racing Dinghies


The CVRDA define these as boats designed and built before WW2 using solid wood and no glue in their construction. They would be constructed using clench pin or copper rivet construction both in double-skin planking and clinker construction. Typical examples would include Uffa Fox built 14's, early Holt built Merlins, Wyche & Coppock Rockets and many early National 12s.

(b) Classic Racing Dinghies


The CVRDA define these as boats designed and built before 1965 that are not already covered by the Vintage classification. They would be made from plywood or moulded veneer construction using glue within construction. Typical examples would include any Fairey Marine built dinghy, all glued ply Merlin Rockets, glued National 12s and the plywood hard chine designs of Proctor and Holt. These boats would be from the hey-day of dinghy racing between the 2nd World War and 1965.

(c) Old Racing Dinghies

We define these boats as being from any dinghy class established before 1965 and built over 25 years ago. This includes any of the development classes established before 1965 as long as the boat was built over 25 years before the beginning of current racing season.

OK...

lets go


cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Ed »

I would like to start this discussion by first getting some ideas of what people perceive are the problems that need addressing.

What is not working? What is currently unfair? Where does it go wrong?


The rules were written under the presumption that it would be next to impossible to provide good racing between a 1930s or 1940s dinghy in original trim and a 25year old boat that had been kept up to modern class 'trim' and that those boats would not feel they were really racing together anyway, so we needed to split the group - hence the wings - 'Vintage', 'Classic', and 'Old'.

I will quickly say, ( I know I have said it before), that the original plan for the CVRDA was to cater for only pre-65 boats. It was only because numbers were low....and we were trying to encourage (mainly local Roadford) boats into the original events that we opened it up to 'boats over 25 years old'.

We hoped that these 'wings' would allow people to compete against boats similar to their own, without feeling 'out-gunned' by a much more modern boat.

To provide reasonable and fair results, we started a CVRDA handicap based on the 1965 PY number, which we could then adjust depending on the age and originality of the boat in question.

The handicap committee has always endeavoured to work to the simple principle, that racing should be as fair as possible, but if anything should favour older boats. In other words, originality should be rewarded with a slightly 'favourable' handicap, a heavily modernised boat should have a slightly 'less favourable' handicap and a boat that was pushing the rules to the hoped advantage of the sailor would get a possibly 'punitive' handicap.

In other words, if your sole intention was to 'win'. It should 'pay' to keep the boat original, not to totally modernise it. This is a very 'grey' area. There is no intention to penalise a boat for using stainless rigging or polyester sheets, but a carbon mast and kevlar sails on a 1950s boat is likely to feel the pinch from the handicap committee.

We have always tried to work to this.....but despite much effort, we ( I think we agree on this) still find that we tend to under penalise the new/modernised boats, or more to the point do not 'help' the original or older boats enough.

Anyway,

your thoughts on the underlying problems?

cheers

eib
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Ed »

Finally.....my thoughts!

I think there are two or three possible problems.

The dates have somehow got out of sync in the 10 years since we came up with the rule. What looks 'classic' to me....now includes lots of boats made between 65 and 75ish

The Vintage wing has never really worked - we get very few boats (which is why we opened it to Tideways) and now many boats that by rules are in the 'classic' wing, would seem much closer in 'ethos' to what we originally meant by 'vintage'.

I do think there is a possible issue with having two boats of same age - one modernised and one not. Should these be in same wing or not?

I have much less worry about the 'this or that boat' becoming CVRDA legitimate than others. To be honest, I don't worry about the results that much....and don't really see the 'old' boats as racing in the same race as the 'classic' and 'vintage'. If they are out-classed within their own classes and want to race with other 'old' boats, it seems OK to me......but I realise this does worry others and we need to find a set of rules which looks after these concerns.

I do have some ideas on how these problems could be addressed......but for the moment will leave it there till we see some other thoughts.

cheers

eib
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Nessa »

Must we be paid up members to vote here? I have yet to make it to an event, so have paid no subs, but would be happy to do so.
Last edited by Nessa on Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Brookesy »

I do not have any problems with the classification of the 'wings' within the constitution and think that the whole ethos of the CVRDA is one to be proud of, my only concern is for the for the future. If we are to continue in our current format or even to grow, I think we need to be inclusive rather than exclusive but obviously we need to maintain the classic/vintage status.
Our problem occurs when we race, wether we admit to it or not, we become competitive, and regardless of what we say, winning or doing well is satistisfying, but for some it is everything.
I believe that the current members enjoy sailing the boats that they have, and the reward/kudos for winnng a CVRDA event is not yet such that anyone is looking for a boat or rig to specifically win at all costs, but it has been alluded to, and we are all aware of the mentions of 'bandits' which could give an unfair advantage.
I would suggest we leave the 'wings' as they are with the the 25 year rule to roll on as is, boats which have been mentioned such as Phantom, Lark, Harrier etc should be submitted to the Committee for approval in the same way as the 'lost classes', and if successful join us on a provisional handicap for full inclusion after a set period.
The handicapping system should also be used to prevent older boats from evolving into 'bandits'. I myself am guilty of grandfathering my '76 Finn to current spec with carbon rig and mylar sail for which I happily take a 5 point hit on the handicap, but for the Roadford event you will see me revert to my alloy mast and dacron sail.
This scenario can easily be put in place for any boat which carries a modern rig for the purpose of improving performance and is easily policed. Up until now this has been left to the committee to carry out but should we document something to make things clearer?
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by STEVEB »

:lol: Hi,
why not just define the old wing as "a dinghy over 25 years old" :?: who cares what it is or what it is made of, the handicapping system can be used to ensure fair racing. Otherwise a lot of older boats will end up in skips or on bonfires because they are no longer competitive (just like loads of us "older" sailors :( )
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Rupert »

I think we should broaden the vintage wing to include any classic wing boat that has been kept "within the Spirit" of originality. I really don't want to see a boat not allowed in the vintage wing because it has a fitting that "wasn't made at the time the boat was", like you see in vintage car rallys, but if an effort has been made to keep the boat as she was when built, rather than updating her to modern spec, then she should be in the vintage wing.

Other than that, I'm ambivilent about changing the classic cut off date - pros and cons to that - but I do wonder whether we need to change the ethos a little to ensure that the wings are not competeing against each other so much, especially at the Nationals, where I think the Overall winner is seen as the champion, rather than there being 3. Maybe we should simply consider splitting the fleet, maybe sending the old wing off 5 minutes after the Vintage and classic, and giving the results without an overall score.
That works when there are plenty of boats, but where there are only 1/2 a dozen, it would be a little silly!
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Nessa »

Obviously I am going to want my 36 year old phantom to be allowed in. It bears no resemblance to its modern classmates in that it still has an alloy rig, it is wooden, the rig is original - no raked mast step, no lowers, original mast foot position, it doesn't even have self bailers, never mind a self draining hull!

I am very happy to keep it this way, even though I know most other classic phantom owners have 'upgraded' their boats, but I do know that this means that even against other classic phantoms I won't stand much of a chance.

I don't care about winning; I just want to preserve the boat and continue to appreciate it.
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by LarFinn »

Hi,
I'm new to the CVRDA having only recently joined the Finn fleet at Roadford. I'm really looking forward to the Nationals in August - putting names to faces and admiring the boats, AND the racing.
Although I appreciate the work and effort many members of the CVRDA put into preserving, conserving and promoting their boats/classes, MY main concern is the opportunity to sail and race my boat with others of a similar age. I sail on a budget, my old(ish) boat was cheap, but within the CVRDA my boat isn't "out-of-date" and "uncompetitive" it is handicapped for what it is rather than what current boats are. I read the new posts on the forum everyday and whenever possible I reply, I am as active a member as I can be, with the constraints I have on my time and budget. I console myself with the knowledge that if I can keep my boat active, she will one day be admired as genuinely old! not just out of date.

In other words I am here because this association caters for boats "of a certain age" which would have been neglected by a class association who focus on "top-end competitive boats". (I'm not having a go at the Finn Assoc. specifically, (especially as an Olympic class) but Class Associations don't exist for the benefit of older boats.)

From that point of view I do little or nothing towards the aims of the CVRDA other than keeping a late 1970's Finn on the water. Is that enough? I don't have the skills, time, space or budget for a genuinely vintage boat. Do you want people like me in the CVRDA? - and depending on your answer does that mean the rules need changing?
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by LarFinn »

To me, it looks like the CVRDA fulfils 2 purposes ("preserving/conserving boats, knowledge and skills for classic and vintage boats"; and providing a class "association for old boats" (either because the class doesn't exist or because by become "old" the boat is no longer catered for by its own class association).

How about scrapping the "old" wing altogether, and setting up a sister association to run alongside (and with) the CVRDA. It could be the ORDA (Old Racing Dinghy Association). Open to any boat (regardless of design date) that reaches 25 yrs old. That way you can tailor each association to better serve its members without causing conflict.
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Rupert »

LarFinn wrote:
From that point of view I do little or nothing towards the aims of the CVRDA other than keeping a late 1970's Finn on the water. Is that enough? I don't have the skills, time, space or budget for a genuinely vintage boat. Do you want people like me in the CVRDA? - and depending on your answer does that mean the rules need changing?
Most of us who sail with the cvrda are in exactly your position, Ed, our founder, included. There are very few people with the time or skills to do what some have done with their boats, which is to produce a boat that is not only beautifully restored but also able to be used to race in without bits breaking all the time or being thought of as "too precious" to use.
Most of us just own old boats and want to sail and race with other old boats, and chat to people who are aware that boats existed before bowsprits, and were actually pretty well designed, too.

So, my view to your question is that you are exactly the sort of person we want in the cvrda, and no, the rules don't need changing for that to happen. But maybe there are ideas out there to make it work better. Trouble is, I bet we can't all agree which are the better ideas!
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by chris »

I agree with most (but not quite all ) of what has been said above.
Wings:
I'm in favour of expanding this to include boats in very nearly authentic condition. Authentic and original don't quite mean the same. But I would put an age limit on otherwise a pre-war boat could be in the same wing as a 25 year old laser. Perhaps 1965 but I would go a little earlier. There may be some grey areas still. EG.Stainless steel rigging as opposed to galvanised seems reasonable but a ribbed/riveted hull that has been totally epoxied and reinforced will be a much stiffer hull that wont take on water and remains lighter. ( to me that would count as modernisation.)
I would certainly like to sail Iska (merlin 6) amongst other similar boats (condition not just other merlins) Spritefull (merlin 507), built '54,has a wooden mast and cotton sails but also an ali one (c. 1970?) so I could choose wheather I sail 'vintage' or not. I am very much in favour of keeping old rigs and set-ups but having the option of swapping over as this gives a boat a real life. Handicaps are obviously nessary but it is still more fun to race alongside a similar conditioned and aged boat than watch everyone dissappear, sail on your own, and then wait to see where you came. The whole point of the CVRDA should be remain centred around Classics and Vintage boats.

25year rule.
I would be against dropping the pre 1965 part of the definition as this would very soon just get rediculous and any event would simply become an open event for mixed classes.
Regarding the 25 part I would actually freeze it now and only increase it by one year every 5 years.
I think I would be in favour of dropping overall winner at main events and just keeping to the classes. (The overal winner ofwill also be a wing winnertoo which seems daft.
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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by ACB »

Er, what Nessa says goes for me. Never paid a sub yet because I've not got to an event yet (I hope this will change shortly). And I think I agree with Chris as well.

Messing about in and to some extent with old racing dinghies has proved to be an unexpected new hobby for me and I'm getting rather keen on it!

I have to declare an interest - my boats are 1963, 1967, 1967 and I am keeping very quiet about the 1937 one which is a long term project. I think I ought to want the 1965 goalpost moved up to 1970 or so, but actually I think its fine the way it is.

I would'nt want the Vintage rules changed but I might want to seek clarification as the project moves along - for example I don't think I should use epoxy on that boat but I don't bat an eyelid using it on the 1963 one (which has in fact consumed quite a lot of it!) but that boat was built with glue - the other one wasn't.

What I think I want is the ability to consult and get a ruling. For example, I think that by shipping a duck's foot rudder and a Reynolds mast I think I can keep my 63 Firefly (she of the centrecase leak photos!) "right" for pre-65 - but then what about the job sheet fairlead location, which would have been on the gunwales in 65 - putting it there now would render the boat uncompetitive in the class but in other respects, by swapping mast and rudder and throwing on a new set of Hydes, she can do well enough against last week's Rondar Firefly - which I think is all to the good.

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Re: Changes to Consitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Nessa »

My other question is, so far as I know Agamemnon was built in 1965, so does she scrape in or not?

With the fitting out (if I ever get round to it) we intend to keep things as simple as possible, but we won't be going to the lengths of fitting a mast screw because that would be really hard to find, as well as making her more difficult to sail. What we want most is to have a lovely wooden boat which has some history and authenticity behind her.

I have also discovered the joy (?) of looking after old or unusual boats, and it's a constant bonus to me that the CVRDA exists for so many reasons. Having a great source of knowledge and expertise in all matters 'old boat' being probably more important to me right now than attending events, but this is because I do too much sailing anyway.
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Re: Changes to Constitution for 10year anniversary?

Post by Ed »

Sorry to be quick.

Trying to get some work done......but lots of people are coming up with very good questions....but largely off-topic.

Lets try and keep this thread really tight on the constitution or otherwise it will get very hard to understand.

If your question re: membership, a particular boat's eligibility, what is classic and what not, etc. does not get an answer here, do please start another thread and we can answer it there.

But keep this thread just on the constitution, the wings and eligibility.

cheers

eib
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