Handicap tweaks

General chat about boats
davidh
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by davidh »

Please can I just remind you that I said at the outset that I did not want to start a contentious string. What I asked for was clarification on what is a serious issue that I couldn't asnwer for myself as I could not find the answer on the site.

I have NOT said that the answer I had was wrong, nor questioned the reasoning behind it. I just asked the question as I had found a 3rd hand sail that would fit the boat and before I went ahead and parted with an cash wanted to know the implications. I had to ask for further clarification - was the -2 per sail or per rig, but rupert had the answer to the question so I now know NOT to proceed.

I've noted though not just the responses, but the manner in which they've been made.

D
David H
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Ancient Geek »

Thank you Patrick for the information it was Ralph Waldo Emerson though of whom I do not know.
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Ianphot
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Ianphot »

I seem to remember a type of dynamic handicapping in junior tennis which went something like this - every time you won a set you started the next set as a -1 player (ie love 1), then -2 if you won again up to -5. When you won the -5 game you moved into the next group and started again. A similar system in dinghy racing could handicap the boat/helm together in a mini tournament of short races - may be suitable for a kids regatta. Subtracting -'x' from winners in sailing series may work locally to even the field (-3 for first, -2 for second -1 for third?) I must write a wee spreadsheet and try this out on recent club series - will post the result if interesting.

Ian
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Brookesy
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Brookesy »

I am happy with the system in place but like David was unaware of the loading penalty which Mylar gave.
I am not trying to gain an advantage, just the opposite, trying to ensure that no future Finn entrants can gain an advantage by mixing and matching.
I am worried however that if we are too quick to place a hard penalty on a particular type of sail or mast that we may 'scare' some competitors away.
It has been mentioned before that alloy masts for Finns are no longer available new, and are like rocking horse droppings s/hand, I have had an add on the Finn Forum for some months to no avail. Similarly dacron sails can be had occasonally s/hand but are getting scarce, whereas s/hand carbon masts and mylar sails are around and certainly the sails are very much cheaper than a new dacron example, but maybe not as good.
Currently, I do not think we have any problems with our handicapping system and as always there will be conditions where a particular boat sails well out of its handicap, but with the recent influx of new Finns to our events I will continue to monitor their performance over the season and give you feedback if required.
Incidently I use a carbon wing mast and mylar sail for club and class events but intend to use a Needlespar alloy mast and dacron sail for CVRDA events so that the boat remains 'in period'.
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Michael Brigg »

It was said of boats that "If you have to ask the price, then you can't afford it!"

That was a class dig (sic) in its time as well but it has come to be a statement synonymous with any relatively expensive pastime.

The point I am making is that if you have to ask about the handicap "price" then you probabably know that you are indulging in a bit of banditry :evil: and the answer may not be the one you want to hear.

So David, in the words of Captain Jack Sparrow, "today will be the day you will always remember as the day you nearly let the Handicap bandit get away! :lol: "

I suppose that you could argue that the boat was given its handicap with the mylar sails as a known part of its original construction. If that genuinely is the case then fair enough. I know little about the black art of handicaps, and even less about MR history, but as a development class it seems to me that if this boat was built at the time Mylar was being developed, then it is likely that it was accounted for in a subsequent review of the boats handicap. Development classes always have that little advantage, and in truth the handicap would need to be looked at retrospectively to make that fair.

I wouldn't worry AG about "bickering," because these recurring handicap threads to me are much more along the lines of a discussion. They always pop up about the same time each season, and seem to attract twice as many contributions than any other thread.

But without wishing to be accused of regional bias, anyone who has seen a conversation between two drivers (or for that matter any group of men) in a Greek Taverna will know that a discussion can sometimes appear to be more heated than the same discussion when it occurs anywhere else, say in a Synagogue.

Discussions about handicap on the CVRDA strike me as provoking a similar tendency to passion. We all love our boats and argue passionately even endlessly for a "fair" place at the table. Vive La Difference.
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Brookesy
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Brookesy »

I am not a great fan of personal handicaps but a solution along these lines could be provided in the form of a personal handicap for each boat.
As Michael mentioned if Davids boat as a restricted design had sails of a certain type in its day then its handicap would have taken that into account and either allowed or measured it out. So should it have an additional penalty now?
A way to solve this problem is used in classic motorsport and is done by using Homologation Papers or a simple logbook.This is done to ensure new vehicles are not built up using a mix of parts to compete against the genuine article.
We could use a similar, but much simpler system to give each boat a personal handicap which would go some way to ensuring a level playing field.
Basically a boat has a simple document to back up its measurement certificate to show that it is 'as built' or what modifications have been made, then a class specialist(CVRDA Handicapper) could decide what its handicap should be adjusted to and this would be noted on the document. The onus would be on the boat owner to prove any changes were in period and not performance enhancing and as previously stated the handicappers ruling would be final.
The advantage for future events would be that documentary evidence of handicaps would be present allowing the skill of the sailor to be tested rather than the bandit label to be applied to a particular boat in a class.
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Rupert
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Rupert »

We have considered doing an even simpler version of this (I've even posted up versions of what Saskia would sail off, or the Skol Moth I owned (look up old handicapping threads), but there was little reaction from anyone else about the idea - it seems the majority are happy to be out racing, and the handicapping is just "there" in the background. But the car system is pretty much what Ed was trying to escape from when he set up the cvrda. "If you have a mainsheet that doesn't date from the year your boat was built, we won't allow you to compete", really could be what classic boat racing could be like. Instead, anything of the right age is allowed, but with the understanding that there is a spirit of the rules to be adhered to. There have been times when that spirit has been stretched a long way, hence the feeling (from many members at the time) that carbon spars and mylar sails should take a hit.

As for personal handicapping, we already have enough variables, don't we?
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by roger »

As Rupert says Turn up show the handicap is wrong and it will be looked at. I am not on the handicap committee but have been asked to make an oppinion when the committee thought they may have been biased. I have no problem with the system as it stands and the only complaint I have ever heard was when a very modernised Hornet turned up at Roadford and when it was explained that the ethos was to try to encourage older boats to race(The whole reason for the cvrda starting) he was happy.
I refer to Strangler at the Netley Nationals hammered on handicap but still won by a mile as he is an excellent helm with an excellent crew with a well sorted Nationals winning boat. He even sailed the last race without spinaker and still came second to another national champion.
At the moment I dont see it as broke so why fix it.

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Michael Brigg
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Michael Brigg »

Ancient Geek wrote:Thank you Patrick for the information it was Ralph Waldo Emerson though of whom I do not know.
I do love these wise quotes that illustrate a posting often better than a (Copyrighted) image. This one reminds me of a similar sentiment expressed by The Bard. "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." Although I think the Emerson quote is more of a dig, where Shakespeare is in the manner of a drawn dagger.

Of course I googled the quote, and while the context wasn't found there is another quote from Emerson, which could be applied to the Handicapping principle.
We ascribe beauty to that which is simple; which has no superfluous parts; which exactly answers its end; which stands related to all things; which is the mean of many extremes.

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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Nigel »

Hmmm.

For me the race is on the water. The PYs are just a bit of maths homework afterwards. I do think though the the PY system imperfections are actually a positive thing. If we had perfect handicapping, the results would be far more predictible. The variation the imperfections bring also brings with it some encouragement to those that were perhaps favoured on that particular day. If the imperfections help keep people sailing then perhaps we need a more imperfect system.
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jon711
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by jon711 »

davidh wrote:Please can I just remind you that I said at the outset that I did not want to start a contentious string. What I asked for was clarification on what is a serious issue that I couldn't asnwer for myself as I could not find the answer on the site.

I have NOT said that the answer I had was wrong, nor questioned the reasoning behind it. I just asked the question as I had found a 3rd hand sail that would fit the boat and before I went ahead and parted with an cash wanted to know the implications. I had to ask for further clarification - was the -2 per sail or per rig, but rupert had the answer to the question so I now know NOT to proceed.

I've noted though not just the responses, but the manner in which they've been made.

D

Surely, you knew that would not be a short thread!!

If, I was to get an old 505 that fitted all the criteria for being CVRDA eligable would I be allowed to compete. Cold moulded Hull, and within the age for eligibilty??? I only ask for information...

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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Ancient Geek »

Jon if you are serious "Drambui Dan", Phil Milanes flyer is still extant. Cold Moulded modern shape just CVRDA able put a modern rig and some new foild and you'll be a real bandit!
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Ancient Geek »

I'll explainthe name to anyone who doesn't know and wants to by PM!
Simples.
Rupert
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Rupert »

A 505 that fits the criteria would of course be welcome. But why the idea that putting a new rig on it would make it a real bandit? The whole point of the cvrda is for racing boats that are old (infact, the main priority was pre 1965 boats), so bunging lots of modern stuff on which the original didn't have simply to make the boat a bandit kind of goes against the grain. Now, many people who race at the cvrda use their boats at class events, and have plenty of decent gear on them. In general, so long as there aren't too many anacronisms, they race off the given handicap, and points are added to the handicaps of boats which still have original kit, to make it fair. This seems to work in classes like the Firefly, where it is easy to track changes, and where the basic boat & materials used haven't changed too much, but in a more complex boat, like the 505 or a development class, there is so much scope for speed increase, it can't all stay the same, as it sends the whole handicap system out of kilter.

An example of this is the British Moth, where the standard handicap is 110. If I'd (or Mark before me) raced 533 off that handicap, it would have been daft, as the class had reduced minimum weight, and the boat had had her weight reduced, if not down to the minimum, then within the ball park of it. The sail area had also increased, with the Merlin style main put on. Again, 110 seems overly generous, then. So, it was decided that knocking 3 points off the handicap would be suitable for the boat as it stands. Now, it may well be that a 505 with a decent mast and sails fits into the Firefly catagory, and that we need to do more for the ones rigged with original kit. But the way you suggest it, AG, it sounds like you know that the rigging has changed beyond recognition. In Which case, some fairness would need to come into things. Either that, or the Old Wing becomes an arms race, and the vintage and classic wings ignore the results from it.
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Brookesy
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Brookesy »

Sorry to harp on and raise it again, but here is a classic example where the logbook could solve the problem.
As the rig is declared new, the owner knows he has to take a hit and therefore thinks twice.
The object of the system is not to condemn boats to tufnol cleats and cotton sails etc but to ensure that the few devious ones out there that wish to make it a 'cheque book arms race' gain no advantage. But those who must upgrade because original items are no longer available are still included, but have their handicap adjusted fairly if neccessary.
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