Handicap tweaks

General chat about boats
Rupert
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Rupert »

It is easy Nigel, (multiply by 1.2 for the change in the 80's, and by 9.46 to the one to 4 figures) but they don't then tie in with modern handicaps, in terms of how fast the boats go. An Ent handicap hasn't changed throughout the years, but the boat has got faster. Some of our handicaps actually work out faster than that of a modern boat. So you may as well just multiply them all by 10 for all the accuracy you are going to get comparing them to modern handicaps, if the computer (or operator) can't cope. Hence the use of the 3 figure system.

Jon, you can use whatever system you like. Its your event.
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Ed
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Re: Handicap tweaks - the CVRDA system

Post by Ed »

Oh lordie....

My heart sank when I saw that first post; every year the subject is brought up and we then get a discussion (in general) between on one side 'those that sail' who want to basically leave in place a system that works for us and 'those that chat' who think we could/should do it better.

I can only really consider any thread which starts with "without wanting to start a contentious string", with the same kind of deep sigh that I would when someone in the pub says "I don't want to sound racist, but...."

For that reason, I had decided to sit this one out.... I think that every point in this thread has been discussed before, in the end it is bikeshedding in its purest form.

But.....oh how enticing it is! So after a week of sitting on my hands here are a few thoughts to just 'some' of the points raised.

DH, started this thread with a very 'simple' question and received a very 'simple' answer, but it in no way tells the whole story.

Let me (again) give a quick background to the idea behind the CVRDA handicap system.

Handicapping is never fair, we were never trying to be fair, but simply to provide good racing for classic & vintage boats on a system that was NOT comparable to modern boats! This meant an intentional move from the 1000 system to the old 100 system, simply to remove any possibility of comparison between new boats and old sailing the same course/race.

We then chose to base this system on the 1965 PY No, which was then the key-central-date for the boats we wanted to support.

Quickly we found that this in itself would not provide the accuracy we wanted and that we needed to provide some further modifications. We did this by giving a modified 65 figure based on 'vintage' or 'old' for the class. Obviously this might be only +1 or -1 for a one design and possibly much more for a dev-class that had gone on to the wire in that period.

This worked for a year or so, then we realised that there was a big difference between a boat that was in 'original' and un-developed state (Iska) and one with plastic mast, sails and sheaved hull.

At this point may I remind you that the whole point of the CVRDA was to help provide good racing for the boat which was 'original' and not the one which was highly developed - the 1950s boat and not the 1970s or 1980s boat. This is a key point! I agree with many that we may well have problems with the handicap, but not with the 25year old modernised boat, but with the simple fact that until 'those-that-want-to-win' choose by choice an original 1950s boat with wooden mast and cotton sails as having a better chance of winning, then the handicap is not yet right.

So, anyway, to return to the 'handicap', we then realised that we needed some 'extra' method of adjusting each boat depending on the 'state of tune' it was in. Early CVRDA entry forms, always had a section for this for the owner to fill out. This allowed the handicap committee to adjust a bit on the basis of 'mylar sails' or whatever or on the basis of the water sailed on (Finns given a point or two when sailed on the river). This basically worked and gave us the system we have now.

On the whole, this was (is?) done in a pretty ad hoc way and we therefore decided to try and be a little more scientific about the process, by coming up with figures for different things (-2 for mylar or whatever), but quickly found this is an impossible road to travel. There are just too many variables as the previous discussion shows. What happens is you say this Merlin gets -2 for this and -1 for that, whilst this Albi gets +1 for this and +2 for that and before you know where you are, you have two boats reversed in the order, which you know is simply not reflected in reality on the water. So, we use these figures as guides, but then have to do a reality check, which may well also include other slight changes, like 'why not put all the Fireflies on the same as the 'classic 12s' as they appear to be the same on the water and it increases their chance of good racing. The idea is to provide good racing....which I think we have! Yes, in theory a move to a 1000 system would provide the granularity for it, but we simply do not have the time, ability or evidence on which to create such a system.

A few other points on the handicap system:

AG suggested having a 'handicap officer'. I think we would love to - but as an organisation, we simply do not have the money to do this. We have also always tried to run in as democratic way as possible.....so we have had a 'Handicap Committee'. Agreed, it has never been voted in, but established by the committee....but it exists. For most of the time, we have preferred to try and cloak it in a slight amount of secrecy, simply to protect the members against this kind of 'bickering' which we have seen here. I think by now it is apparent, that the two people who have remained on it over the years are Rupert and Myself. But we always also have a representative from the host club and normally any other particularly knowledgeable person we can find. Jon asks what happens at events where we are not there. Simple, you form your own and using the CVRDA numbers as a base, make your local adjustments as you require to provide good racing. The only proviso I give is simply to remember you are trying to give good racing to ALL ages of boats of ALL states of tune, not just the newest boats.

We would love to show the exact PY for all boats before an event, but this is simply not possible, due to the handicap committee having to look at the boats off and on the water to get some kind of idea of the boat-speed. This has even sometimes meant waiting till publishing the first race/days races till they are public. This has even at times, meant that we have had to negotiate an adjustment of PY well into a series of races, if has become apparent that our numbers are not correct. Nearly every time this has happened it has been simply because the helm has come to us and said they felt their PY was too 'easy' and asked for it to be changed to provide better racing. This isn't perfect, but handicapping never is and it fits with our ethos and the kind of sailor we have.

Converting the figures to and from the 1000 system and trying to give a modern number for old boats is a complete nightmare and nearly always very unhelpful. The only events that I know where race organisers refused to use our '100' system and stick to their own '1000' system have ended in complete disarray. Remember the whole point is to try and provide good separate racing for classic boats. You have to make it hard or impossible to allow comparison between old and new. If you have the same system you quickly get people being pissed off as they compare their results/handicap to their modern equivalents. I really advise against using the 1000 system in any form.

Jon, if you have any problems with using the CVRDA 100 system at Oulton, I suggest you contact us as soon as possible. There is no issue, we are more than happy to provide the methods and/or sailwave to do it for you. But why this is an issue I don't know. The system is identical it just changes the base from 1000 to 100. But in the end, as Rupert says - it is your event, and you can do what you want with it!!
If you can do it better.....Please do show us how!!!

We have often discussed the idea of an individual boat-based handicap system - entwined with the idea of a boat-register. All gone a bit quite now. Just don't have anyone to do it. If you are up for it....give us a call.

We have plenty of handicap races, where I have often been surprised to find that the fleet is much closer than it often is in modern fleets. We can't be that far wrong!

Oh....theres more theres more, but I really want to get on with my day.

This has all been covered so many times before!

eib
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Ancient Geek »

I give up - what a relief I hear you say! - it does seem to me that we are determined to be exclusive; rather than "how can we help"? It seems to be "good luck you are on your own"!
This dogged wish to do it our way against the way everyone else does it, preserving the need to be big fish in little ponds, perhaps afraid of the wider world? Some time ago I wrote a "spoof" CVRDA anthem I repeat it now rather more serriously.
To those who want to it their way, against the National flow I would simply ask you to believe it possible you might be wrong!
It's great concept a great organisation made of men and women of goodwill who care. I understand that discussion is discouraged at the AGM prefering the discussion to be on the forum before hand and any votes being "whipped" no problem there then!
I'll give the lament before The Anthem!
You did it your way
CVRDA Lament
And now, the end is near;
It’s time to get, a brand new question.
My friend, Ill say it clear,
Ill state my case, of which I’m certain.

I’ve read this question through.
I’ve read everything you’ve had to say;
And noticed this, and only this,
You did it the wrong way.

Good puns, I’ve found a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I noticed each and every slip;
Each dreadful joke on this in-formation highway,
And noticed this, and only this,
You did it the wrong way

Yes, there were times, I’m sure you knew
When I laughed, but they were few.
But through it all, there was no doubt,
You fucked it up, you blew it out.
I faced it all and still you all;
Did it the wrong way.

I’ve groaned, I’ve cursed and cried.
And I feel you’ve been abusing.
And the few, good puns aside,
I found nothing too amusing.

To think I did all that;
And it was gay – (not in a good way),
Oh CVRDA, with a three,
You did it the wrong way.

For what is a question, what has it got?
Well this one, really has naught.
To say the things it truly asked;
Very few managed the task.
The record shows this question blows -
You did it the wrong way.

CVRDA ANTHEM
(Apologies to Village people.)
Young man, there's no need to feel down.
I said, young man, pick yourself off the ground.
I said, young man, 'cause you're in a new town
There's no need to be unhappy.

Young man, there's a place you can go.
I said, young man, when you're short on your dough.
You can sail there, and I'm sure you will find
Many ways to have a good time.

It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A
It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A

They have everything that you need to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the bouys ...

It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.
It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.

You can get yourself clean, you can have a good meal
You can do whatever you feel ...

Young man, are you listening to me?
I said, young man, what do you want to be?
I said, young man, you can make real your dreams.
But you've got to know this one thing!

No man does it all by himself.
I said, young man, put your pride on the shelf,
And just go there, to the C-V-R-D-A.
I'm sure they can help you today.


It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.
It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.

They have everything that you need to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...


It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.

It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.
You can get yourself clean, you can have a good meal,
You can do whatever you feel ...

Young man, I was once in your shoes.
I said, I was down and out with the blues.
I felt no man cared if I were alive.
I felt the whole world was so jive ...

That's when someone came up to me,
And said, young man, take a look at the web.
It's a place there called the C-V-R-D-A.
They can start you back on your way.


It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.
It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.

They have everything that you need to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the bouys ...

CVRDA

It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.
It's fun to sail with the C-V-R-D-A.
Young man, young man there's no need to feel down
Young man, young man pick yourself off the ground
C-V-R-D-A
then just sail with the C-V-R-D-A
young man, young man I was once in your shoes
young man, young man I said, I was down and out with the blues.
C-V-R-D-A


Got to go afloat!
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Ed
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Ed »

In what way is anything that I have said 'exclusive'?

How can an association with an open forum - where anyone can take part, an open membership policy - where you do not need to pay anything to join, an open-racing policy - where you don't even need to be a member to race with us. An open-communication organisation with all policy discussed in public.....be so exclusive??

On the contrary, we have done our very best to encourage as many people into sailing and racing old boats as we can, from all areas and levels of experience.

We have actively gone into the boat park and the sailing school to find inexperienced racers and newcomers to sailing, encouraged children and OAPs. Encouraged ex-racers and cruisers back into some racing. We have done our very best to provide and make a 'friendly' and 'easy' place to race without some of the pressures of racing in some modern classes. Many people own old boats, simply because they don't want to race so we found them and assured them that it would be different with us. That it would be fun. That they didn't have to be part of a 'win at all costs' attitude.

On the other hand we have some very experienced sailors, who actually like our racing due to the very fact that they can take it less seriously....that they can still race, but not feel they are being judged if they don't come first.

Is it 'exclusive' because, it was started from a 'different' viewpoint? That it didn't want to just become another 'racing' class full of the same old jocks who have been racing together for the last 40 years??

Is it 'exclusive' because it is about the 'boats' and not the 'people'?

Is it 'exclusive' because we want people who are primarily into 'old boats' who want to race, rather than people who want to race and think that it might be easy to go and win a few pots in a modernised 25 year old boat??

Is it 'exclusive' because we only allow those that 'sail' to make the key decisions that influence our 'racing' rather than all the 'talkers' on the forum?

If so......I guess we are 'exclusive' and I will be proud of it.
This dogged wish to do it our way against the way everyone else does it
I think you have really missed the whole point!

The CVRDA was started simply because we couldn't get any good racing or even any interest or understanding from clubs doing it 'the way everyone else does it'.

After you have been turned away from a few clubs because your class does not have a PY No....and then given a PY that is based on what they believe the class 'would' have 'if' it had been developed for a further 50 years since your boat was made. After you get used to the presumption that you must be a 'crap' sailor if you want to sail an old boat and therefore there is no way that you could do well. After you get told that the handicap must be wrong if you did that well in a 50 year old boat...etc ....etc

Well, a few of us got fed up and we got tired of racing for the last few places in big fleets, being shouted at by sailors of crap modern boats, who treated us like flotsam and all thought we were mad, or had no place racing with serious 'racers' in modern boats.

So, we thought bugger it - lets start our own racing.....just for us, then we don't need to get in their way....or annoy them and we can set it up so it works for us. They didn't want us to race with them....so we figured we would set up some races to race with ourselves.

We didn't choose to do it differently - to be exclusive.....we were already 'excluded'. We still are! You try getting a decent race with a 40 year old boat in any of the big London Lakes!

Is this going against the 'national flow'?? I don't see how.

We just thought there was a gap....and filled it! Our needs were different, so we started with a clean sheet of paper and designed the association with the racing that would best support us.

Can't say why this is a 'national' question anyway! A few years ago, we had forum members from USA, Canada, France, NZ, Netherlands, Germany, Australia. We had people travel across the world to go to classic dinghy events.

Now, somehow everyone is arguing about whether the guys on the east coast have got bigger willies than those on the south coast and whether the Hornet sailor could drink more beer than the Merlin guys......and surprise surprise....we don't seem to have any (or very few) international members any more.

Sorry, didn't read the poem - was it funny?

eib
Ed Bremner
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jon711
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by jon711 »

I take your points (And we do have bigger Willies on the East Coast!!!)

We just need to modernise slightly (If that is not an anachronisim (Not in the dictoniary - probably spelt wrong!)). And we need to sort the handicap issue out.

If you are saying that we have less visitors from Europe, surely that must say something... They either can't afford to travel (Who can these days?), they were unimpressed with the sailing, they are disenfranchised with the sailing they were offered, or they just did not think that the CVRDA offered what they were after..

Let's close this all down, it's not good for the CVRDA.

May I respectfully request that all of the previous comments are discussed at the next CVRDA comittee meeting??? And we wil see what happens....

Jon
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by davidh »

I'd just like to echo Jon 711s comments. As the starter of this thread, it really was a quick question, as I had a change to get a new main sail. These days, with the demise of DSM (and for those of you who write on other Forums NO, the mag was not about to go toes up, nor was it given away cheaply. In fact, the final 'value' that was placed on the mag was surely an indication of just how well the mag WAS working - but I digress) as I said, with the demise of DSM, money is tight. So, before I parted with my hard earned spondulics, I thought I'd better check. I actually dropped Pat an email asking her the question but either the mail did not get through (entirely possible, I've been having IT issues) or else Pat missed it, the bottom line was that with time being of the essence, I needed to know clearly where I stood.

Hence my initial posting - and really, I did NOT want this to become a contentious issue. After getting an answer I had to get further clarification -did the penalty apply per sail? With that in place the answer was clear, telling me NOT to proceed.

Yes - I was a tad surprised but I fully accept the rules as they are - it is now my call to go and source some dacron sails, which I can use with further need to keep the handicap committee from whatever other issues need to be addressed.

I was also a tad saddened to see how the level of angst increased in the exchanges, this was, I repeat, NOT a contentious email but a simple request for guidance. So jon has said it right - this matter should now be dropped forthwith.

I will not post on this subject again and suggest that with the situation now clear (at least, on the use of Mylar) that the subject is closed: Webmaster, as the poster of the thread, can I request that?

D
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Rupert »

jon711 wrote:
And we need to sort the handicap issue out.


Jon
What handicap issue? As far as I can see, the issue is with poeple who have never done events or done so few they have no idea what they are talking about. Ed has explained how it works, I've explained how it works. So why is there an issue?
Rupert
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by admin »

Can we all calm down.

Either keep on topic or go and post to Sailing Anarchy.

For the final time, there is no East/South split.

Take your personal beefs with each other away from the forum.

If you truely want to contribute to the CVRDA then get involved with this thread http://cvrda.org/community/viewtopic.ph ... 6&start=15
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by jon711 »

If there is no East/South divide, please state how many of the committee are from the east?

I only ask for info.. And not in a inflamitory way...

Jon

I really do not feel that we should be cleaning our underwear on a public forum!!!
To discuss contact me on PM or E:Mail
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Ed
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Ed »

Well......mmmmm.....one.....I guess, from the East coast of Scotland.

But as for the South East, we have never had anybody from the South East offer to do anything for the organisation of the CVRDA, let alone be on the committee!

We can only vote for people who put themselves forwards.

I am not in a position to offer you a post, as I only have an honorary position on the committee myself but if you want to do something.....why not offer your services?

Rupert has just said he wants to step down as publicity sec or PR officer or whatever.....and I don't think there is a Social Sec at moment. The committee is always dying for people to come and help.....what stops you?

If you want to help.......HELP!

If you want to just belly-ache......why?

I don't understand what it is you want? What do you want us to do?

You keep asking me to pm or email you.....but I havn't got a problem and you obviously do....so go for it!

cheers

eib
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Ancient Geek »

I shall post this on both threads that seem to covering the same ground!
On this subject, at least, it will be valedictory, there was temptation to do a series of PM’s but then Ed said go for it so I shall!
Roger the answer is of course no just signing on and then demanding the established venue for the nationals be moved to WOBYC from Clwedog is just irrational and smacks of hostile take over, I am not sure that was actually said by the way.
I’ll declare an interest in 1964 I presented a Trophy to WOBYC still raced for “The Wherry Trophy” in gratitude to a childhood well spent and boatbuilding, sailmaking and sailing lessons learned – and learning to drink and have fun! We’ll leave sex out of this!
Though for goodness sakes clubs offering to run regattas are rare enough in the UK in these overregulated and cash strapped times.
I have friend who sail vintage boats in Denmark, Holland and Germany and all say “they have never been to see us”! They do of course also race very different boats mainly somewhat older between the two World Wars in the main.
I am, confident that the CVDRA will prosper and survive but not so confident that unless it gets a bit more formal that it will remain the premier such organisation, maybe the current members do not want it to.
Perhaps an AGM that was more than a rubber stamp of decisions reached and allowed discussion (with appropriate beer breaks!) might encourage more to attend, one can see the problems elsewhere, the Merlin Rocket class a year or so back failed to get a quorum at its AGM with 100 boat owners in a small town where the AGM was held because discussion was discouraged by the clique that run the class, perhaps this is why magnificent a boat as it is it is moribund.
Seems a shame that the CVRDA cannot do more events, anywhere. These boats are pretty (well some are!) certainly eye catching and sell the concept so well as do their owners.
How many of you pay a SUB? I know I do but its quite hard to do so.
I have friends who were at the front of the Benderprise incidents, who have been involved in the just finished bending of the Wayfarer and am myself involved in maximising hull shapes in The International Dragon Class, where the Grandfathering in 1975 of various hulls that would no longer measure helps a lot!
I cannot help reflecting that in the days when sailing was truly booming that is to ay the 1960’s most clubs were very prescriptive as to classes you could race. At Ranelagh only with a National 12 or Merlin Rocket though open meetings were run for Enterprises and International 14’s and of course the Tideway Races for many more classes going upstream to London Corinthian they added Enterprises Firefly’s and Int 14’s subtracting the National 12’s and Merlin Rockets. Upstream at Tamesis Minima and Thames it was Cadets, Firefly’s, National 12’s Merlin Rockets Int 14’s and Thames Raters, Minima did run a handicap class made up of Enterprises, Solos, Albacores and a half rater or two. (It was so across the country from the North West down to the West Country, even in Wales. It is still thus in many highly successful clubs abroad especially so in the hundreds of family clubs in the harbours of Denmark.
Those roto-moulded boats have done little for the long term prosperity of our sport, there can be little pride of ownership they teach no skills are far from pretty and frankly have little to commend them.
Volunteering to help is difficult in any organisation getting help when you need it harder in the UK we have lost by and large the wish to volunteer for anything, as a volunteerer (Territorial Army.) all my adult life I know it’s hard especially if you live abroad and work and play hard anyway. But if you ask people (“do you believe we are on this planet to help each other” was my late Godfathers way of getting you to help.) they mainly say yes!
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by roger »

Why post it twice?
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by jon711 »

Maybe because it applies to both threads, and that it would seem, that there is a severe case of short sightedness at times!! :lol:

Jon
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by jon711 »

Ed wrote: I am not in a position to offer you a post, as I only have an honorary position on the committee myself but if you want to do something.....why not offer your services?

Rupert has just said he wants to step down as publicity sec or PR officer or whatever.....and I don't think there is a Social Sec at moment. The committee is always dying for people to come and help.....what stops you?

If you want to help.......HELP!
How do I go about applying for the PR Job? It would be interesting to be involved, and would open up the Assoc with a better national split!! As I will not be at the Nationals, but at Oulton Week, it really makes it hard to represent myself at the AGM...


Jon
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Re: Handicap tweaks

Post by Pat »

OK I've caught up with this thread so my penn'orth.

Brookesy - we've got the boat log. It's a spreadsheet on my laptop at present, compiled from all the previous events I've got recorded. That's how I knew what all those Finns at Roadford were on last time and just had to check they still had the same kit.

Jon - both Garry and us hope to be at Oulton Broad and I can help with the handicaps and results calculations. I've bashed cvrda results into my laptop sailwave at more venues than I care to remember, so I can help sort out something based on our handicaps even if we just multiply everything by 10 to fit your program. Since it's a seperate start, the handicaps for the classic races don't have to bear relation to RYA ones, just be correctly relative to other boats in the same race. For example we could do 1000 for the firefly, 880 for DavidH in Smokey Bear and 940 for the albacore. Just add 0!

We've always offered advice on handicaps for club racing - just search the forum threads.

I don't care for all this east and west business - we'll sail anywhere it seems interesting. In one year we've done the Firth of Forth, Roadford, Brightlingsea and Clywedog and would readily do so again. Hence our "sailing gypsies" nickname - given by an Essex man.
Are we south westerners? Well we live in Wiltshire, Sandy's from Central Scotland with Irish roots, I was born and raised in the North Midlands and mother's family came from Brightlingsea. What does that make us? British of course. One nation, one cvrda.
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