Am I a sinner?

General chat about boats
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Am I a sinner?

Post by Ed »

This so worries me:

When DavidC (who I respect immensely) says:
it is racing and it is beholden on every good racer to try and make their boat as fast as they can within the rules which might include a handicap
This seems so far removed from what the majority of old-school CVRDA was about.

In the past David has also said something along the lines of it being our duty to 'try as hard as we can to win' (sorry if this is not an exact quote - please do feel free to correct me if it does not reflect your opinion).

I just feel that the CVRDA is really a long way outside normal dinghy sailing as represented by the RYA.

Am I so evil - if for 90% of the time I couldn't care less who wins? Should I be black-balled for sometimes slowing down to chat to a friend, or going wide to give room at a mark to an older boat? For going back to pick up my hat? For slowing down to take a photo? For sailing with my children? For laughing? For having fun?

Is it so bad - if I have more admiration for someone struggling with wooden mast and cotton sails at the back of the fleet than a modernised boat at the front? If I want to race a boat in as original form as I can, even if I know I could make it faster? Is it so wrong that I think the old un-developed boats should have a system that allows them to to well? Should I really be looking for every handicap loop-hole I can find to try and make my boats 'faster' and more 'competitive'?

Is it honestly my responsibility to put 'winning' in front of 'enjoying' our old boats?

Was the CVRDA so wrong to try and create a handicap system that gave the older boat a half-chance at doing better, without totally turning it into a new boat?

Yes, these are racing boats....and we should and do enjoy racing them, but I think if anybody honestly feels it is their duty to race a boat that is as highly developed as they can make it.....as hard as they possibly can.....this is most probably the wrong association for them. Go sail a laser.

love & kisses

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
User avatar
Ancient Geek
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:50 am
Location: Sletten,3250, Denmark and Hampshire GU33 7LR UK

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Ancient Geek »

A sinner no, but certainly no racer either, if lack of ambition lack of talent to make a boat go fast (this is not related to seamanship - many a good sail racer cannot bring a boat alongside!) or lack of funds no shame at all but do not mock those who do race to win, and accept the discipline that means.
If I did not race I would seldom go afloat in a sail boat.
Simples.
User avatar
Ancient Geek
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:50 am
Location: Sletten,3250, Denmark and Hampshire GU33 7LR UK

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Ancient Geek »

Just remember these boats were built to race!
That many have lasted is a tribute to the best materials that were used and the skills of their boatbuilders and in some cases the good maintainance. They would, if kept in commision have been constantly updated, "Tiptoes" is an excellent example looking at her in detain it is clear that from the date of her launch in 1949 she was kept up to date (Self bailer fitted etc.) until put out to grass. Indeed using the equinae analogy horses that are past their use by date are usually put down, except by a sentimental few who do not understand horses and thie horrible natural deaths.
Simples.
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Ed »

but do not mock those who do race to win, and accept the discipline that means.
If I did not race I would seldom go afloat in a sail boat.
I am not mocking anyone.

The CVRDA is a pretty wide church and has plenty of room for those who want to race keenly. Sometimes that even includes me, but much of the time, I just want to enjoy sailing old boats in the company of others who also want to do the same.

I think the CVRDA should allow....NO! - encourage that!

They are 'racing' boats......we race.

As you say.....we havn't seen you on the water yet!

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
JimC
Posts: 1721
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:24 pm
Location: Surrey
Contact:

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by JimC »

Ed wrote:I just feel that the CVRDA is really a long way outside normal dinghy sailing as represented by the RYA.
Am I so evil - if for 90% of the time I couldn't care less who wins? Should I be black-balled for sometimes slowing down to chat to a friend, or going wide to give room at a mark to an older boat? For going back to pick up my hat? For slowing down to take a photo? For sailing with my children? For laughing? For having fun?
Serious racing is what I have a modern boat for... But I think to say "as represented by the RYA" is unjust. Lets face it, by definition 90% of us aren't in the 10% with a serious chance of winning the Championships, so we must be in it for something else...
Nessa
Posts: 2290
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:16 pm
Location: East Angular

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Nessa »

In my contender I will do everything I can to make it fast to beat as many of the blokes as possible.

In a club race I would make any concession needed to assist a nervous beginner, then offering some advice afterwards.

I haven't made it to a cvrda race yet, but I'm not going to fit my boats out with carbon spars and go faster gadgets just to win, because that would be a sure fire way to blow my own brain and her indoors' budget, and I'm really only in it because I love the boats.
The Peril
Agamemnon
Lovely little Cadet
OK 1954
Xena Warrior Princess
Finn 469
Laser 2
Wayfarer World
User avatar
jon711
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Harlow, Essex, UK

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by jon711 »

Just to put my two penneth in, at the risk of upsetting the old school...

Racing Dinghies were designed to be raced hard, and at the extreme of the rules. I remember seeing assymetrical Enterprises in the late 80's, early 90's, just to ensure they left the start line on starboard tack quicker than other symetrical ents.

Like Nessa, with beginners or inexperienced sailors they have room (We all have to learn somewhere), but that does not mean I will not still push the boat to it's limit (And beyond, as my exploits from Whitefriars and Hunts will prove!).

I must admit that a lot of David C's comments, should be considered with open minds, and no predjudice - with an open mind they make a lot of sense. Please do not get entrenched in the "This is how we have always done it" mindset. If that is used then the organisation may fail.

The world moves on, things change, we may not be happy with all of the changes, but we may need to embrace the changes for the greater good!! (Applying for my Sainthood now!! :wink: )

Jon
Nigel
Posts: 1238
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:51 am
Location: Thornbury SC, Bristol

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Nigel »

it is racing and it is beholden on every good racer to try and make their boat as fast as they can
That lets me off the hook. I have never been a good racer so will continue to sail how I wish in whatever strange craft has taken my fancy, taking care only not to spoil the enjoyment of others. It is not a matter of life or death so really does not need to be treated as such.
User avatar
Ancient Geek
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:50 am
Location: Sletten,3250, Denmark and Hampshire GU33 7LR UK

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Ancient Geek »

No it is not life and death it is to quote some football wallah more important than that!
Seriously I have just had a cracking race and am back to the other stuff.
All I ask is open minds and to believe it possible that we might be wrong!
Simples.
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Ed »

Sorry, this has moved on so far that I feel I have lost the original thread.

We might be wrong about 'what'?

Can someone put this in a simple clear form that we could discuss in easy steps.

Or that, if supported could go in front of the AGM?

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
User avatar
jon711
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Harlow, Essex, UK

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by jon711 »

Ed, I would happily explain it all at the AGM, but I will be busy recovering from Oulton Week....
We can not alter the date of Oulton Week, so if you want people from the East, to communicate at the the AGM you need to alter the dates. Or all comments will be on a public forum, or do we only want people from every where exept the East be included??

JT
Nigel
Posts: 1238
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:51 am
Location: Thornbury SC, Bristol

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Nigel »

Whats to discuss?

I can't see an AGM resolution about how hard we have to try making any sense and if people really want to waste valuable sailing, drinking or whatever time discussing it, I will happily be somewhere else and will happily ignore any mandate that might be voted on this. The only logical penalty for not trying hard enough would be promotion up the results (demotion carries no threat to those who do not care about winning).

To me it is very simple. It is your boat. Sail it as hard or soft as you wish. Sail by the rules and with courtesy, manners and a sense of fair play & please let everyone else make decisions for themselves.
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Ed »

Jon,

Why wait for the AGM?

As we have explained before, we don't use the AGM for discussion much....

If you have something you want to discuss, or suggest......just do it here now. That is what the forum is for!

We don't have committee meetings, much.... all our decisions are proposed, discussed and pretty much settled here in public on the forum. Then the 'sailing-members' vote at the AGM to accept or refuse it.

I am sorry if you won't be able to make it to the Nats. But having had our Nats for 10 of the last 11 years over the bank holiday, it is somewhat of a tradition. It is not being held in the South West, but mid wales. I just don't see how this could have any kind of anti-east meaning??

To be honest we all just want to have a laugh at the nats. We don't want to spend good drinking time arguing over this stuff when it is so much fun to do it online.

This has all been covered a million times before.

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
User avatar
jon711
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Harlow, Essex, UK

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by jon711 »

But all we get is "That is just the eastern mafia" let's ignore them!! I really do not want to continue this discusion on a public forum, it will not be good for the CVRDA. Please contact me by E:Mail, or PM..

Jon
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Re: Am I a sinner?

Post by Ed »

Sorry?

I am not aware of any 'mafia' - west or east.

I have not heard of anybody else refer to an 'eastern mafia'. Can you please send me a link to this post. I would like to consider it for moderation.

If you would feel happier discussing anything off-forum....go for it. Email me or who-ever you want to talk to.

But if you want to change anything....then sooner or later, you will have to frame your proposals in such a way that they can be put before the membership, first on this forum and then once a proposal has been formulated, at the AGM.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Locked