Am I a sinner?

[roger]

I am saddened that this once lively friendly organisation is being pulled apart by the public infighting going on here. Jon I dont want to be rude but you have sailed at a couple of events you have come onto this forum with ideas and oppinions which appear to be misinformed and when the whole thing is talked through ina reasonable manner by Ed you just say that for the last ten years we have been wrong. There is no one from the East on the committee because we started in the west the most active members are in the west up until now so natural growth has been slow to move out.
I have the utmost respect for David C but it doesnt mean I have to agree with everything he says. AG has obviously done lots for the sport and is very knowledgable and successful and I am just an average club racer. Does that make me wrong to want to preserve and continue a successful organisation.
For a new member to come along and demand that we move our Nationals to suit his sailing calender is really like asking my neighbour not to park his car on his drive as it spoils my view.

I agree racing boats should be raced but there is also room for those treasured boats with history, or originality that shouldnt be pushed so hard that they will not be sailed again.

May I emphasise that the cvrda was set up to provide a level(ish) playing field for those of us who like our old boats and beleive the best way to preserve the heritage we have in them is to sail and race them alongside others with people of the same mind set.

I love the cvrda the way it is i see no need for momentous change and will fight to keep it that way. Exclusive in all the ways Ed has pointed out.

There are plenty of classes and clubs out there. This one is a little different for a reason.

[JimC]

Racing Dinghies were designed to be raced hard, and at the extreme of the rules.

Frankly that's just not the case... That's just one aspect of the sport, and to suggest that's the only one worth considering is verging on arrogance.

To take your own example, the Enterprise, the reason they had so much trouble with rules and slenderprises, benterprises etc through the 70s and 80s was exactly because they were NOT designed to be used at the extent of the rules. Build tolerances and the like were built into the rules to make it easier for amateurs with poor carpentry skills to make a boat that measured, not to enable people to make faster boats by exploiting the edges. Doing so was and is a perversion of the rules and concept Jack Holt and the New Chronicle came up with - a boat that could be used by the family for racing and cruising, which is why the rules have been progressively tightened to prevent such things, but at the cost of making the boat more and more inaccessible to the home builder with a consequent escalation of expense.

There are a few classes that were designed solely to be raced hard and at the limit of the rules, but precious few. A moments thought should tell you that the current popularity of the rotomould classes with their multiple rigs etc, which outsell what I imagine you folks would call proper racing boats about thirty to one or something, demonstrates that racing hard and at the limit of the rules is NOT what interests most dinghy buyers these days. If you think these folks are somehow not proper sailors and should maybe even be banned from Sailing clubs then that's an attitude I can see destroying the club system.

I don't do the odd CVRDA event to race hard at the limit of the rules. Doing so in a forty year old boat which requires more hours of maintenance per annum than it gets to sail would be a quite ridiculous exercise. If I want to race hard at the limit of the rules I have an modern International Canoe which is built and modified to the limit of the rules and raced as hard as I want. To me the CVRDA events are entirely different. There's an element of vintage boat show, an element of chat, and yes a considerable amount of racing. However the racing is because racing is more interesting than sailing round at random. The results are interesting, maybe pleasing if you do well, but if I wanted to do well I'd be less precious about keeping my old boat in 70s condition and yes, actually I'd sail a different class. Because if I was interested in winning then bringing along a 1972 Cherub to venues like Frensham and Thames would be utterly pointless.

[Nessa]

I am from the East but have not been invited to join the mafia (perhaps that explains the horse's head????)

I really though this thread was about not trying hard enough. Now it seems to have an edge to it that indicates some other issue going on.

Two things occur to me:

1. That Nigel is right; it's my boat (s) and I'm going to sail them how I like. Given that for most of my fleet workshop time far outweights on the water time due to the amount of work needed to keep them looking good and afloat, then I am perfectly within my rights to limit how hard I push my boat during any race. And how hard I push myself. The serious stuff was done a while back. Enough t shirts to stock a shop.

2. The saying goes, if it ain't broken, don't try to fix it. Judging by what I read on here and what I experienced at Hunts, the cvrda is a pretty successful organisation. Why change it?

[Ancient Geek]

I shall post this on both threads that seem to covering the same ground!
On this subject, at least, it will be valedictory, there was temptation to do a series of PM’s but then Ed said go for it so I shall!
Roger the answer is of course no just signing on and then demanding the established venue for the nationals be moved to WOBYC from Clwedog is just irrational and smacks of hostile take over, I am not sure that was actually said by the way.
I’ll declare an interest in 1964 I presented a Trophy to WOBYC still raced for “The Wherry Trophy” in gratitude to a childhood well spent and boatbuilding, sailmaking and sailing lessons learned – and learning to drink and have fun! We’ll leave sex out of this!
Though for goodness sakes clubs offering to run regattas are rare enough in the UK in these overregulated and cash strapped times.
I have friend who sail vintage boats in Denmark, Holland and Germany and all say “they have never been to see us”! They do of course also race very different boats mainly somewhat older between the two World Wars in the main.
I am, confident that the CVDRA will prosper and survive but not so confident that unless it gets a bit more formal that it will remain the premier such organisation, maybe the current members do not want it to.
Perhaps an AGM that was more than a rubber stamp of decisions reached and allowed discussion (with appropriate beer breaks!) might encourage more to attend, one can see the problems elsewhere, the Merlin Rocket class a year or so back failed to get a quorum at its AGM with 100 boat owners in a small town where the AGM was held because discussion was discouraged by the clique that run the class, perhaps this is why magnificent a boat as it is it is moribund.
Seems a shame that the CVRDA cannot do more events, anywhere. These boats are pretty (well some are!) certainly eye catching and sell the concept so well as do their owners.
How many of you pay a SUB? I know I do but its quite hard to do so.
I have friends who were at the front of the Benderprise incidents, who have been involved in the just finished bending of the Wayfarer and am myself involved in maximising hull shapes in The International Dragon Class, where the Grandfathering in 1975 of various hulls that would no longer measure helps a lot!
I cannot help reflecting that in the days when sailing was truly booming that is to ay the 1960’s most clubs were very prescriptive as to classes you could race. At Ranelagh only with a National 12 or Merlin Rocket though open meetings were run for Enterprises and International 14’s and of course the Tideway Races for many more classes going upstream to London Corinthian they added Enterprises Firefly’s and Int 14’s subtracting the National 12’s and Merlin Rockets. Upstream at Tamesis Minima and Thames it was Cadets, Firefly’s, National 12’s Merlin Rockets Int 14’s and Thames Raters, Minima did run a handicap class made up of Enterprises, Solos, Albacores and a half rater or two. (It was so across the country from the North West down to the West Country, even in Wales. It is still thus in many highly successful clubs abroad especially so in the hundreds of family clubs in the harbours of Denmark.
Those roto-moulded boats have done little for the long term prosperity of our sport, there can be little pride of ownership they teach no skills are far from pretty and frankly have little to commend them.
Volunteering to help is difficult in any organisation getting help when you need it harder in the UK we have lost by and large the wish to volunteer for anything, as a volunteerer (Territorial Army.) all my adult life I know it’s hard especially if you live abroad and work and play hard anyway. But if you ask people (“do you believe we are on this planet to help each other” was my late Godfathers way of getting you to help.) they mainly say yes!

[roger]

Roger the answer is of course no just signing on and then demanding the established venue for the nationals be moved to WOBYC from Clwedog is just irrational and smacks of hostile take over, I am not sure that was actually said by the way.

AG This is not what I said. Jon suggested we move our traditional dates for the Nationals and AGM so that he could attend. I am merely suggesting that why should we change our traditonal time for our nationals to suit a new member.

Please can we keep this rational. The CVRDA works. It has worked for over ten years. We have moved and changed things over the years to incorporate and become more open.

The South West thing has never ever been an issue. I dont regard myself as south west I live a mile from Wiltshire. The only reason we are more active in this area is because that is where our ground root support started.
We have supported events in Brightlingsea, Stafford, Netley, Hunts, Wales, Kent and many more i have forgotten.

We continue to support clubs that wish to hold events even if we cannot personally attend. We are not here to run events for people but we have no shortage of clubs wishing to host events for us.

All these threads are devisive and not helpful. As Ed has said earlier on please put a sensible well thought out proposal to the members who can discuss it as we have always done (on line) to be voted on by the members at the AGM at our Nationals where the active members that can attend will.
I ask you all to consider that if you feel that there is so much wrong with the organisation that maybe the organisation is not for you.

[jon711]

Roger the answer is of course no just signing on and then demanding the established venue for the nationals be moved to WOBYC from Clwedog is just irrational and smacks of hostile take over, I am not sure that was actually said by the way.

AG This is not what I said. Jon suggested we move our traditional dates for the Nationals and AGM so that he could attend. I am merely suggesting that why should we change our traditonal time for our nationals to suit a new member.

I don't think that is exactly what I said. I beleieve, (going from memory!) that we said that as Oulton Week was in a far bigger system than the CVRDA changing the dates for the CVRDA Nationals would be sensible.

Jon

[alan williams]

I would just like to say that as a founder member of the CVRDA. That I joined this organisation, maybe thats a wrong discription, this loose association, of in the main like minded boat owners for two reasons. The first was cost having run new boats and buying new sails and top quality equipment for years and to the detriment of my family it was a refreshing change. It was great to be able to step into a casual racing scene where winning at any cost was not important. I once had state of the art boats with all those little " cheats " we have spoken of previously and cheque booked raced. Now it's great to race with a boat that cost less than a jib on my previous class. Having a laugh about sailing a Finn with a go fast diesel bottom finish. Not sulking about not winning as the expectation is not there neither is the ruthlessness. Being able go home in a good frame of mind having enjoyed an event even with out picking up the silver ware.
Secondly to meet a really good bunch of people who in the main sail fairly and do not carry the events on the water home with them, most matters being settled over a drink and a promise not to do want ever it was that caused the problem to start with. There is no divide in the CVRDA only geography, if it had been founded in East Anglia naturally the founders would have come from that area. Let us also remember that WOBW was suggested after the Nationals had already been booked and that Clywedog also have a need for support as this is a one "Class" event supported by a small club. August bank holiday is also the traditional time for the CVRDA Nationals and is the most suitable for the majority of the members. I for one would be loath to change the date.
Please let this go and get on with the sailing other wise I'm thinking of getting a boat that does not qualifie for the CVRDA and leaving behind alot of good friends.
Cheers Al

[Brookesy]

I think I must be a sinner also.
I have only done a few CVRDA events but I enjoy what I see as the ethos of the CVRDA, that is others racing boats which they cherish which would perhaps no longer be competitive in the 'modern fleet' but provide as much if not more enjoyment because they are being raced for pleasure rather than just to win.
If I wish to race seriously then there is always the class open circuit, where perhaps DavidC's quote is apt, but for the CVRDA events I see it as fun first and the attitude of 'second place is for the first of the losers' is not what it should be about.
I am a sinner, I just remembered I did not even check my results yesterday from the club racing, I just enjoyed the sailing.

[Michael Brigg]

But all we get is "That is just the eastern mafia" let's ignore them!!
Jon

In the (few) CVRDA events I have done, I have not observed any suggestion that there is an East Coast mafia.

No one is ignored, on the contrary, there is an overwhelming hospitality. The usual practice I have seen is that someone, often one of the organisers will take you round and introduce you to everyone.

Given the nature of the (watch out, contentious word here, I'll say it quietly) hanndicap system, there is often a moderate delay while "scrutineering takes place, during which everybody is free to have a gander at your pride and joy, and generally very complimentary.

...unless of course its Davidh, who is always good for a bit of ragging

Racing Dinghies were designed to be raced hard, and at the extreme of the rules.

That may be your personal philosophy and you are entitled to it. t is an approach that is taken in many sports and works well for individuals.

My experience of CVRDA events is that the sailing is assertive, but not aggresive. I have always felt that the man in the boat is going to enjoy his boat more than the man on the shore. As such, if I am not on the water taking part, then who am I to criticise the nature of the sailing. A man in a beat up e-bay Skipper14, sailing it with his family in my opinion is having far more success in his sailing, than I am with my boat in the garage. He has taken the time and commitment to be there where I have placed my priorities elsewhere. I have perfectly good reasons for those priorities, but I have no right to criticise him for his "lack of sailing skill or commitment" that he has to criticise mine.

That being said, and at the risk of being East Coastist, one has only to read Michael Green's Art of Coarse Sailing to realise that there is much to be said for being the man on the bank at Potter Heigham on a Bank Holiday

As to personal Handicaps. Sorry, personal Handicaps (and Jon711, no, I am not referring to your crown jewels, either in fact or in Font!

There is a memorable scene (of many) in that timeless childrens favourite, "The Jungle Book," in which Shere Khan, voiced by the incomparable George Sanders lays down the rules of a "handicap" for the chase to Mowgli.

"Now I am going to give you a head start." he says. "It makes the hunt more interesting....for me!"

Fortunately Mowgli is clever enough to "push the rules to the limits" so to speak, but rather than calling starboard on the fleet, he uses the time to tie a firebrand to Shere Khans tail.

The object of racing is surely to win to say one just goes along for the sail is to admit one may as well cruise in company...
...Given that Handicap Racing is unavoidable with the broad church that is the CVRDA, it would make oh so much sense to comply with the nearly universal methodology than swim against the tide. Given the necessarily rather arbitary nature of handicaps how about pursuit racing, at least first to finish has won!

...And Also
No it is not life and death it is to quote some football wallah more important than that!
Seriously I have just had a cracking race and am back to the other stuff.
All I ask is open minds and to believe it possible that we might be wrong!

Several points but I'm not sure I entirely agree with them all.

Rudyard Kipling, a man close to your heart I think, warned us in "If" (well worth a spot of revision) that "Meeting Triumph and disaster, we should treat these two imposters just the same."

One of my favoured philosopies is that "Losers are more important than winners" because without them there would be no competition. Those that are 2nd or 3rd or last should be accorded the same respect as the winner, and if you only sail to win, you are not competing, you are merely parading...sort of cruising in company!

As for football, someone may have said that, but (Fallen) Saint Gary Linneker himself said on TV of an England game: "It's only a game."

...He had some perspective of course as his son George was at the time having treatment for Leukaemia.

So having said all that I to would like to get back to "The other stuff." Time to wake up and sniff the thinners I'd say

[Ancient Geek]

OK I said validictory but....I think all of us who race and race to win are also aware that the last boat / car / horse /person is as important as the first for without them there is no race!

[loisbarlow]

Hello, I don't often have time to visit the CVRDA website because I work full time and when not working I like to sail!
I started sailing about 18 years ago at our small local club - we got hooked - we did courses as a family. I learned more about the boats. Our club racing improved gradually as we bacame more confident. Our club lake is small and then one holiday, we saw some beautiful boats at a CVRDA event - the first one I believe at Roadford. Since then we haven't looked back - we have sailed all over the country, I am truly happier on inland waters, my sea sailing being limited to Plymouth Sound, Brighlingsea and Netley.
I cannot say how much I have enjoyed the opportunities to sail at all the super clubs we have been invited too as CVRDA members. The racing is always good and if on occasion we have travelled with ISKA (merlin 6 in pretty much original condition) and the weather has been too rough, then we have enjoyed the social side of events. When we take Sprite Full, our normal club boat, but still a mature lady (- the same age as me infact!) we sail to our capabilites - sometimes we come near the front of the fleet and at others times we don't!
Without the CVRDA our sailing experiences would have been limited to our local club, we wouldn't have met some great people or had so much fun.
That for me is what the CVRDA is all about - so thank you (all those host club members, commitee etc) for making that possible - the ethos is absolutely right for me and many like me who like to visit new waters and sail regularly with like minded people.

[Nessa]

Well said Lois! I think all too often we lose sight of the sheer joy of being on the water. I spend my Thursday afternoons supervising my local Sailability group. This can be stressful sometimes and requries huge numbers of volunteers to make it all happen, but no matter how exhausting it can be, it's always worthwhile when you see just how enjoyable the sailors find the whole experience of being afloat.

[Michael Brigg]

I remember a cartoon in "Punch" many years ago. Three men in a sailing dinghy, the forward crew, his legs set in concrete,leaning out and clearly immensely enjoying himself, and in the stern, two (East coast?? ) mafia types, one saying to the other:- "Wonderful isn't it, how sailing lifts the spirits."

[Garry R]

I do feel that I represent a geographically balanced CVRDA member. I come from Ireland, I did my PhD in Bristol, I have lived in Aberdeenshire for 32 years, I have only sailed for the last 6 years. I am going to Oulton Broad AND to Clywedog. I have been to CVRDA events at Ranelagh, Thames, Frensham, Clywedog, Shearwater, Banbury, Roadford, Dorchester and have travelled from Aberdeenshire for each event. I think that's a pretty good spread of venues and Oulton will balance it up further. Please stop harping on about East West. I could complain about North South if so minded. It does CVRDA no favours and I would hope that the CVRDA success and popularity is what we all want. Just get out on the water wherever and sail. Stop squabbling and GET SAILING