Well, the difference between the Bell Rope and the proper trapeze is "only" the use of belt and hook , dictated by the need of quick and frequent tacks on a dinghy racing course specially on restricted waters.
(though i have seen an early 50's photo of trapeze training of a russian national team in a magazine ...the belt was rather primitive and the hook was an alpinist schackle that certainly needed some skills to undo when tacking.
Pacific Natives or Yemenite Tribesmen, certainly travelled for much longer distances (In Monfreid's book a disgruntled Coat guard officer said -rather bitterly- that he chased a Yemenite Zaroug for three days on end witout catching the prey) and frequent tacking is almost impossible with the latin style rig .
The interesting point is wether this technique did or did not in turn influence boat design among those "prehistoric trapeze sailors"
As the Zarougs were considered the fastest boats in the red sea, i think i would answer yes .. In the French carribean (and certainly in other carribean islands too) the fisermen used to hang out from long, folding "outriggers" called Bois Dresséson their long overcanvassed fishing skiffs (an early variant of the hiking planks used on IC10 and hornets)...and almost inevitably some boat builders specialized in "racing" skiffs , used by local people for inter - village , round the island ,contests.
In ay case there is a strong incentive ( Be it local pride , steam propelled law enforcers or megalomania and unlimitedbudgets -such as in the AC-)
boat design evolves and specializes...in a Darwinian sense.
First Trapeze
These may be all valid points BUT - from tthe dinghy perspective, we need to look at the trapeze in the wider context of dinghy devleopment. There is a whole lot more to having a trapeze than just adding a wire to the rigging and wearing a harness. There are a host of other issues, starting with the strength of the side deck, layout of the crew area, then compression in the mast...just to name a few. A great example of this might be the Pegasus, for while Uffa got a great hul shape the boat is by no means an 'easy' combination of hull and rig to ail well.
We've been in and out of this discussion a number of times - on how Ian Proctor wa a leader in the notion that the fundamental hull shape also needed to change to reflect the fact that the crew was trapezing (see the threads ono te Typhhon Dinghy)
So - taing the above point into consideration, one could argue that it would be Uwe van Essen, designer of the FD, or Proctor with his first attempts at the Osprey, who really took the idea of the trapeze and built a boat to accomodate it!
D
We've been in and out of this discussion a number of times - on how Ian Proctor wa a leader in the notion that the fundamental hull shape also needed to change to reflect the fact that the crew was trapezing (see the threads ono te Typhhon Dinghy)
So - taing the above point into consideration, one could argue that it would be Uwe van Essen, designer of the FD, or Proctor with his first attempts at the Osprey, who really took the idea of the trapeze and built a boat to accomodate it!
D
David H
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LASERTOURIST
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
- Location: France
It is a most interesting discusion, but still I'm not so sure Trapezing needed a specially designed boat , some classes could be fitted with it some not, and when fitted, it somewhat changed the class uses and sailor ranking.
The Osprey was a 3 in Dinghy and the adoption of trapezing led to turn it into a 2 men boat.
The french 420 was initially(1958) a no trapeze, no spinnaker boat , carefully planned as a trainer by two expert sailing instructors from the national Siling Centre of Socoa SW france, in a sheltered bay but with an access to the shaky bay of biscay.
It was rather crude at the beginning , (no traveller, wooden mast, transom mainseet similar to topper) but had been beautifully designed for the (then) brand new space age material, namely GRP which Lanaverre from Bordeaux -formerly manufacturing wine casks- started to master.
As all successful beginner boats (Mirror , Vaurien -both plywood- laser topper...) it evolved into a serious racing class (with midweight crews and a surprising number of couples ).
Trapeze was then introduced (at first only for youth championsips and crews under age 17) and the class shifted to a youngster , even harder racing class.
The midweight ex 420 enthusiasts then shifted to the 470 (designed by Cornu as an enlarged 420 pecifically as "le bateau du juste milieu"something between the small 420 and the mighty 505 and built by lucien lanaverre arch rival, jean morin)...
Finally the 470 was granted the olympic status, frantic resarch went in , prices rocketed ...and a good number of ex 470 enthusiasts either turned to cabin sailing boats or sold their 470 to buy Lasers
The 470 had a trapeze from the start and though it never claimed to be specifically deigned round the trapeze idea, like the Typhoon and elvstrôm tapez,, it was internationally successful because it was light , fast without much canvas and required little maintenance.
the US contract with Harken brothers (Vanguard) developping the class in
the US (Where the 420 had already made quite a success) did the rest .
Elvstrôm idea of making a 3 in one boat was perhaps a little too ambitious.
The 420 , just like the Dart 18 cat was intended from the start to have a second mast step and pair of shroud plates to be rigged as a catboat but the solo event in the 420 worlds was dropped in the late sixties (when OK's started to catch up in France)..;
The Osprey was a 3 in Dinghy and the adoption of trapezing led to turn it into a 2 men boat.
The french 420 was initially(1958) a no trapeze, no spinnaker boat , carefully planned as a trainer by two expert sailing instructors from the national Siling Centre of Socoa SW france, in a sheltered bay but with an access to the shaky bay of biscay.
It was rather crude at the beginning , (no traveller, wooden mast, transom mainseet similar to topper) but had been beautifully designed for the (then) brand new space age material, namely GRP which Lanaverre from Bordeaux -formerly manufacturing wine casks- started to master.
As all successful beginner boats (Mirror , Vaurien -both plywood- laser topper...) it evolved into a serious racing class (with midweight crews and a surprising number of couples ).
Trapeze was then introduced (at first only for youth championsips and crews under age 17) and the class shifted to a youngster , even harder racing class.
The midweight ex 420 enthusiasts then shifted to the 470 (designed by Cornu as an enlarged 420 pecifically as "le bateau du juste milieu"something between the small 420 and the mighty 505 and built by lucien lanaverre arch rival, jean morin)...
Finally the 470 was granted the olympic status, frantic resarch went in , prices rocketed ...and a good number of ex 470 enthusiasts either turned to cabin sailing boats or sold their 470 to buy Lasers
The 470 had a trapeze from the start and though it never claimed to be specifically deigned round the trapeze idea, like the Typhoon and elvstrôm tapez,, it was internationally successful because it was light , fast without much canvas and required little maintenance.
the US contract with Harken brothers (Vanguard) developping the class in
the US (Where the 420 had already made quite a success) did the rest .
Elvstrôm idea of making a 3 in one boat was perhaps a little too ambitious.
The 420 , just like the Dart 18 cat was intended from the start to have a second mast step and pair of shroud plates to be rigged as a catboat but the solo event in the 420 worlds was dropped in the late sixties (when OK's started to catch up in France)..;
Lots of very interesting things going on here - from Elvstroms' Trapez to the 470.......
What I think is the underlying theme though is the path of 'dinghy development' - with boats getting lighter, carrying more sail and eventually have much more in the way of 'design for high performance'.
Several times I have been approached by supporters of various classes suggesting that an XYZ one design would be a good subject for an article. It is then hard to explain that whatever it is doesn't have a particular relevance to the path of evolution. As an example, the Mirror 14 was an ideal subject when I did the 'Lost Classes' series - while the very similar Seafire wasn't.
I'm not a naval architect so am not really qualified to comment on how different the hull shape needs to be to maximise trapeze performance but if the likes of Proctor and Milne all felt that there was a need to rethink their design philosphies then I'll go with that. What I do know is that there is a difference from the practical experience of sailing from the trapeze in a boat designed for a wire - and one that isn't!!
And finally - Elvstroms Trapez! Now there is a subject for an article, which is why I've been researching the boat for some time now.
In so many ways, this was a design light years ahead of it's time. From one piece moulded fixed rudders, through to deck layouts, the Trapez was one of the most innovative boats of the mid 1960s. So what went wrong? The answer probably lies in the complexity of Paul Elvstom as a person, along with where he was heading to in his mind at the time. His 'breakdown' period was looming, while the pressures on him were building. As a single handed boat, the Trapez deserved a better fate but in coming up against the Unit and Jeton the shortcomings soon beame apparent. The Trapez never sailed head to head against the Contender else I think that the issues with Elvstom and his boat would have been exposed in an even harsher light. Still, the Trapez lived on in it's two man guise and can stil be found sailing, albeit in Northern Europe.
Now there IS a boat to see at CVRDA events - though I think saiing one at Shearwater would be 'hard work'!!!
d
What I think is the underlying theme though is the path of 'dinghy development' - with boats getting lighter, carrying more sail and eventually have much more in the way of 'design for high performance'.
Several times I have been approached by supporters of various classes suggesting that an XYZ one design would be a good subject for an article. It is then hard to explain that whatever it is doesn't have a particular relevance to the path of evolution. As an example, the Mirror 14 was an ideal subject when I did the 'Lost Classes' series - while the very similar Seafire wasn't.
I'm not a naval architect so am not really qualified to comment on how different the hull shape needs to be to maximise trapeze performance but if the likes of Proctor and Milne all felt that there was a need to rethink their design philosphies then I'll go with that. What I do know is that there is a difference from the practical experience of sailing from the trapeze in a boat designed for a wire - and one that isn't!!
And finally - Elvstroms Trapez! Now there is a subject for an article, which is why I've been researching the boat for some time now.
In so many ways, this was a design light years ahead of it's time. From one piece moulded fixed rudders, through to deck layouts, the Trapez was one of the most innovative boats of the mid 1960s. So what went wrong? The answer probably lies in the complexity of Paul Elvstom as a person, along with where he was heading to in his mind at the time. His 'breakdown' period was looming, while the pressures on him were building. As a single handed boat, the Trapez deserved a better fate but in coming up against the Unit and Jeton the shortcomings soon beame apparent. The Trapez never sailed head to head against the Contender else I think that the issues with Elvstom and his boat would have been exposed in an even harsher light. Still, the Trapez lived on in it's two man guise and can stil be found sailing, albeit in Northern Europe.
Now there IS a boat to see at CVRDA events - though I think saiing one at Shearwater would be 'hard work'!!!
d
David H
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jpa_wfsc
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:52 pm
- Location: Oxford (Work) Coteswold Water Park (Sailing)
Various Trapeze Boats.
I don't think the hull shape has much to do with being a good trapeze boat - more the sail area - it has to be powerful enough, and tuneable enough to balance power against righting moment.
I've recently been teaching trapeze on a variety of modern boats, and have sailed several Trapeze boats that are not so modern!
The best is the fireball - which was of course designed without trapeze! Its best because it is so easy to move in and out, and the rig is both tuneable and powerful enough - in almost any wind you can power the rig up to need the crew out. But its bad when you are not on the wire - so cramped. The 470 was designed with trapeze but is most often underpowered except for quite light teams.
The worst is the 29er - its just so unstable until moving fast, and wont move fast until you are on the wire... when it becomes surprisingly easy to sail (if not particularly easy to sail to its handicap).
Pegasus is way nicer to sail with a small crew trapezing than with a big one hiking - once you have got the sails trimmed right to balance the righting moment. Hiking, the boat feels much more twitchy - perhaps because the same righting moment is however being applied with a shorter moment arm, so there is less damping. Pegasus's with older rig controls than 194 has got must (have been) be a REAL handfull!
Osprey is very fast but ponderous, so good for heavier teams trapezing - you do not need to be so agile. So is the Laser Stratos which is the best modern weapon to teach trapezing on.
In all cases an important point is that once trapezing the crew has to have responsibility for boat power - the best results come from giving the mainsheet to the crew (like skiffs do) and for the helm to sit still and do the tactical stuff. That seems to be the fastest solution as the crew will balance him or herself much better than the helm will, keeping the boat flat, into and out of gusts, so resulting in much more speed.
Cheers!
I've recently been teaching trapeze on a variety of modern boats, and have sailed several Trapeze boats that are not so modern!
The best is the fireball - which was of course designed without trapeze! Its best because it is so easy to move in and out, and the rig is both tuneable and powerful enough - in almost any wind you can power the rig up to need the crew out. But its bad when you are not on the wire - so cramped. The 470 was designed with trapeze but is most often underpowered except for quite light teams.
The worst is the 29er - its just so unstable until moving fast, and wont move fast until you are on the wire... when it becomes surprisingly easy to sail (if not particularly easy to sail to its handicap).
Pegasus is way nicer to sail with a small crew trapezing than with a big one hiking - once you have got the sails trimmed right to balance the righting moment. Hiking, the boat feels much more twitchy - perhaps because the same righting moment is however being applied with a shorter moment arm, so there is less damping. Pegasus's with older rig controls than 194 has got must (have been) be a REAL handfull!
Osprey is very fast but ponderous, so good for heavier teams trapezing - you do not need to be so agile. So is the Laser Stratos which is the best modern weapon to teach trapezing on.
In all cases an important point is that once trapezing the crew has to have responsibility for boat power - the best results come from giving the mainsheet to the crew (like skiffs do) and for the helm to sit still and do the tactical stuff. That seems to be the fastest solution as the crew will balance him or herself much better than the helm will, keeping the boat flat, into and out of gusts, so resulting in much more speed.
Cheers!
j./
National 12 "Spider" 2523
Finn K468 'Captain Scarlet'
British Moth, 630, early 60's 'Pisces'
!!!! Not CVRDA !!!!
Comet Trio - something always ready to sail.
National 12 "Spider" 2523
Finn K468 'Captain Scarlet'
British Moth, 630, early 60's 'Pisces'
!!!! Not CVRDA !!!!
Comet Trio - something always ready to sail.
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LASERTOURIST
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
- Location: France
Well...
I quite agree with the idea that some non trapeze boats make very trapezable boats when trapeze is fitted.
As a laser sailor when i use a Laser 4000 (in training and school courses )
I tend to react laserlike e;g send the (generally inexperienced) crew out on the wire and do the fine tuning myself (depowering the main on gusts as i have a windsurf and funboard - proven pair of arms) and do the fine balance with the hiking straps...but it might well be inferior to the usual skiff technique with the crew dealing with the mainsail..and yes , the faster it goes the steadier it is, like a motorcycle
Still for trapeze beginners a quiet boat like Caravelle (the quiet 6 in - one chine - blunt nose Dinghy by JJ Hebulot that used to be the bread and butter of french sailing schools before it started a second life as a -seious or not so serious racing boat when going into private ownership) was beefed up as the caravelle sport (a little more canvas and a trapeze ) it did not make the caravelle a serious contender for the FD but itwas a way to get students used to the thing on a tame boat before trying on something more spicy....
After i traded my well used and carefully maintained caravelles to private enthusiasts and replaced them by Laser 16's (with a good benefit in the operation because 3 over 6 Laser 16 in very restorable condition wre just being dumped by a Mark Warner Hotel in Corsica and i got them almost complete for nothing but the trouble of collecting) I bought one privately owned Laser 16 in Normandy ...and yes indeed it had been improved with a pair of baby shrouds...and a trapeze!
It turned out that the first owner was a 505 helmsman and while he had taken up to a family boat, he wanted to give his children some fun and had rigged his Laser 16 that way!
This is from the training / school point of view , of course, but on the racing side trapeze allows a lighter crew and consequently means going faster...provided the wind is steady....
When racing a 420 on the Seine river in a particularly crazy spot (trees and hangars providing an incredible variety of puffs and calms in a few seconds time,i preferred the old version of the boat (hiking straps extended to the thwart in front of maststep for the crew..)
Two in the straps and no trapeze was faster in those very shifty conditions as both crew and helmsman were reacting faster that way...
I admit it is quite a special spot to sail ...but we got quite a practice at roll tacking and following the lifts...
I quite agree with the idea that some non trapeze boats make very trapezable boats when trapeze is fitted.
As a laser sailor when i use a Laser 4000 (in training and school courses )
I tend to react laserlike e;g send the (generally inexperienced) crew out on the wire and do the fine tuning myself (depowering the main on gusts as i have a windsurf and funboard - proven pair of arms) and do the fine balance with the hiking straps...but it might well be inferior to the usual skiff technique with the crew dealing with the mainsail..and yes , the faster it goes the steadier it is, like a motorcycle
Still for trapeze beginners a quiet boat like Caravelle (the quiet 6 in - one chine - blunt nose Dinghy by JJ Hebulot that used to be the bread and butter of french sailing schools before it started a second life as a -seious or not so serious racing boat when going into private ownership) was beefed up as the caravelle sport (a little more canvas and a trapeze ) it did not make the caravelle a serious contender for the FD but itwas a way to get students used to the thing on a tame boat before trying on something more spicy....
After i traded my well used and carefully maintained caravelles to private enthusiasts and replaced them by Laser 16's (with a good benefit in the operation because 3 over 6 Laser 16 in very restorable condition wre just being dumped by a Mark Warner Hotel in Corsica and i got them almost complete for nothing but the trouble of collecting) I bought one privately owned Laser 16 in Normandy ...and yes indeed it had been improved with a pair of baby shrouds...and a trapeze!
It turned out that the first owner was a 505 helmsman and while he had taken up to a family boat, he wanted to give his children some fun and had rigged his Laser 16 that way!
This is from the training / school point of view , of course, but on the racing side trapeze allows a lighter crew and consequently means going faster...provided the wind is steady....
When racing a 420 on the Seine river in a particularly crazy spot (trees and hangars providing an incredible variety of puffs and calms in a few seconds time,i preferred the old version of the boat (hiking straps extended to the thwart in front of maststep for the crew..)
Two in the straps and no trapeze was faster in those very shifty conditions as both crew and helmsman were reacting faster that way...
I admit it is quite a special spot to sail ...but we got quite a practice at roll tacking and following the lifts...
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LASERTOURIST
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- Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
- Location: France
As for the underlying thelme of dinghy development, i think a fast and beautiful hull shape and a carefully built and tuned boat with top notch sails is not always a successful dinghy on the market.
The other all important item is the building cost and purchase price.
Jean Jacques Herbulot was an olympic class helmsman (never got a medal but went 4th in the star class both in 1932 and 1936) an architect (both for buildings and boats) and a successful sailmaker (The spinnakers for the 12 JI that did wonders to help brtish twelves Sceptre and Sovereign look less ridiculous in the AC in the fifties (They only gained ground on the US twelves when hoisting the Herbulot spinnakers..... he had a love for beauiful classical architecture and he is best remembered for his ugliest boat
His most successfuldesign was the Vaurien a seemingly ungainly single chine plywood boat with a flat bottom from the bow to 2/3 of boatlength (then the panels were slightly veed and rounded under the transom).
It was a simple , some say crude, boat but it had a visionunderneath:
The somewhat utopisic /communist thinking heads of the Glenans who ordered the first batches and held the manufacturing licenses wanted a training boat that cost the price of two bicycles and got it thanks to the then revolutionary marine plywood.
Herbulot and the Glenans team went into great brain racking to keep the price down and specially to have a boat that could be cut out of a standard dimension plywood sheet, with the absolute minimum of leftover (and it was done withot computers !) they didn(t specially bother for speed as the boat was intended as a trainer.
They finally created a boat 500% cheaper than the previous equivalent dinghy (The Caneton, a sinle chine boat similar to the snipe but not a one design class) .
The Vaurien appealed to a public that was far more numerous than the usual yacht club lot (and indeed some white capped - toffee nosed yacht clubs banned the Vaurien on almost ideological grounds, as a good number of them were bought for the "blue collars" by Comités d'Entreprises - Trade union - ruled leisure comittes that are compulsory in firms over 50 employees in France)
The Vaurien went to some 20 000 units made and was finally halted by the difficulty of converting its very flat shape to GRP (before the advent of sandwich , airew and nomex....) it is where the 420 took over in the middle late sixties
Such success story is not unique in dinghy sailing (It is the same with the mirror and the topper in UK, with the Optimist and the Laser in the US and Worldwide, with the 420 and 470 in france, with the windsurfer and its many imitators) and the spark that ignite the trend is generally a breakthrough in technology allowing a dramatic cost reduction (plywood ,GRP , Polypropylène...)
Once the successful boat has taken the market slot, many boat builders try to copy but generally too late (think of the Yamaha seahopper (japan), the X4( France) , the Vario (Germany) , The Estela (Spain) that tried to copy the Laserand are now lost classes or little better) and most of the time go bust.
Then the once popular -even proletarian- class goes into serious racing , prices and racing commitment goes skywards and the class starts to nose-dive and the disgruntle sailors wait for the next breakthrough that will make dinghy sailing cheap and popular again.
I only hope we will not be totally Alzheimer ridden when the next cycle starts...
The other all important item is the building cost and purchase price.
Jean Jacques Herbulot was an olympic class helmsman (never got a medal but went 4th in the star class both in 1932 and 1936) an architect (both for buildings and boats) and a successful sailmaker (The spinnakers for the 12 JI that did wonders to help brtish twelves Sceptre and Sovereign look less ridiculous in the AC in the fifties (They only gained ground on the US twelves when hoisting the Herbulot spinnakers..... he had a love for beauiful classical architecture and he is best remembered for his ugliest boat
His most successfuldesign was the Vaurien a seemingly ungainly single chine plywood boat with a flat bottom from the bow to 2/3 of boatlength (then the panels were slightly veed and rounded under the transom).
It was a simple , some say crude, boat but it had a visionunderneath:
The somewhat utopisic /communist thinking heads of the Glenans who ordered the first batches and held the manufacturing licenses wanted a training boat that cost the price of two bicycles and got it thanks to the then revolutionary marine plywood.
Herbulot and the Glenans team went into great brain racking to keep the price down and specially to have a boat that could be cut out of a standard dimension plywood sheet, with the absolute minimum of leftover (and it was done withot computers !) they didn(t specially bother for speed as the boat was intended as a trainer.
They finally created a boat 500% cheaper than the previous equivalent dinghy (The Caneton, a sinle chine boat similar to the snipe but not a one design class) .
The Vaurien appealed to a public that was far more numerous than the usual yacht club lot (and indeed some white capped - toffee nosed yacht clubs banned the Vaurien on almost ideological grounds, as a good number of them were bought for the "blue collars" by Comités d'Entreprises - Trade union - ruled leisure comittes that are compulsory in firms over 50 employees in France)
The Vaurien went to some 20 000 units made and was finally halted by the difficulty of converting its very flat shape to GRP (before the advent of sandwich , airew and nomex....) it is where the 420 took over in the middle late sixties
Such success story is not unique in dinghy sailing (It is the same with the mirror and the topper in UK, with the Optimist and the Laser in the US and Worldwide, with the 420 and 470 in france, with the windsurfer and its many imitators) and the spark that ignite the trend is generally a breakthrough in technology allowing a dramatic cost reduction (plywood ,GRP , Polypropylène...)
Once the successful boat has taken the market slot, many boat builders try to copy but generally too late (think of the Yamaha seahopper (japan), the X4( France) , the Vario (Germany) , The Estela (Spain) that tried to copy the Laserand are now lost classes or little better) and most of the time go bust.
Then the once popular -even proletarian- class goes into serious racing , prices and racing commitment goes skywards and the class starts to nose-dive and the disgruntle sailors wait for the next breakthrough that will make dinghy sailing cheap and popular again.
I only hope we will not be totally Alzheimer ridden when the next cycle starts...
Salut lasertourist!
What a wonderfu line of arguement - I am sure that this would make for a great evening discussion over a beer or two. Can you make it to Netley next summer? We are only 30 minutes or so from the Ferry Terminal at Portsmouth so you could come as a foot passenger, then get a lift along to Netley - there are always people looking for someone to sail with.
And yes the Vaurian - we had one at netley but the plywood rotted away. In the Uk there were a number of boats not dis-similar, boats such as the Signet and Mermaids (plus many other) - all designed to get the biggest boat that could be squeezed out of standard 8' x 4'sheets of ply!
(even the Mirror 14 was so sized as to be able to be formed from 4 sheets)
What you have done though is to 'hit the nail on the head' - by identifying that there is a big social context to the development of dinghies. Most attempts at recording the history of the sport miss this aspect of it completely!
Would love to talk with you on this, apart from 'Laser Toursi' is there a better way of addressing you?
David
What a wonderfu line of arguement - I am sure that this would make for a great evening discussion over a beer or two. Can you make it to Netley next summer? We are only 30 minutes or so from the Ferry Terminal at Portsmouth so you could come as a foot passenger, then get a lift along to Netley - there are always people looking for someone to sail with.
And yes the Vaurian - we had one at netley but the plywood rotted away. In the Uk there were a number of boats not dis-similar, boats such as the Signet and Mermaids (plus many other) - all designed to get the biggest boat that could be squeezed out of standard 8' x 4'sheets of ply!
(even the Mirror 14 was so sized as to be able to be formed from 4 sheets)
What you have done though is to 'hit the nail on the head' - by identifying that there is a big social context to the development of dinghies. Most attempts at recording the history of the sport miss this aspect of it completely!
Would love to talk with you on this, apart from 'Laser Toursi' is there a better way of addressing you?
David
David H
The Jollyboat wasn't either.
trapeze only came in after a couple of years, when the steel plate was dropped by most boats.
Not sure about the Osprey? Was that the first dinghy designed for trapeze?
Interestingly....the Jollyboat also has a long overlapping genoa in its class sail-plan, but it was never freed for use in class racing - only club racing. Although there was a lot of support for adopting it...I am glad they didn't it is horrible to sail with and a nightmare to tack.
cheers
eib
trapeze only came in after a couple of years, when the steel plate was dropped by most boats.
Not sure about the Osprey? Was that the first dinghy designed for trapeze?
Interestingly....the Jollyboat also has a long overlapping genoa in its class sail-plan, but it was never freed for use in class racing - only club racing. Although there was a lot of support for adopting it...I am glad they didn't it is horrible to sail with and a nightmare to tack.
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
The Osprey wasn't designed for trap. Proctor wrote that it got the trap late in the first ISAF trials, at the suggestion of Sir Peter Scott who was observing. It did a couple of races with the wire in those initial trials, and of course by the time the second trials came around shortly afterwards, just about everyone had a plank or wire.
Osprey was the only boat with a wire in the first trials; Hornet with its plank had been one of the two outstanding boats (the other being the FD which despite occasional rubbish claims was miles ahead).
The Contender would probably be just about the first major class designed for the wire off the top of my head.
Osprey was the only boat with a wire in the first trials; Hornet with its plank had been one of the two outstanding boats (the other being the FD which despite occasional rubbish claims was miles ahead).
The Contender would probably be just about the first major class designed for the wire off the top of my head.
Chris,
I wonder if there may not just be a touch of history being written here by the victors. THere was a very strong showing from the Caneton at the trials and on a points basis this is the boat that should have been selected. So - the FD would have had an been the boat for inland and the Caneton for sea use....... quite bizarre really. From the Caneton came the 505, probably the best boat never to get a showing at the olympics.
I've raced both boats and know tat both are wonderful designs. BUT - and this is a huge leap out on the limb of personal opinion, in the end, as an all round boat, the 505 has to be the better of the two.
And now an interesting sub plot - |I see that there is quite a move in Fance to work on 'classic' 505s. Should we invite them to Netley - after all, it's not far from the Channel ports of Poole and portsmouth?
D
I wonder if there may not just be a touch of history being written here by the victors. THere was a very strong showing from the Caneton at the trials and on a points basis this is the boat that should have been selected. So - the FD would have had an been the boat for inland and the Caneton for sea use....... quite bizarre really. From the Caneton came the 505, probably the best boat never to get a showing at the olympics.
I've raced both boats and know tat both are wonderful designs. BUT - and this is a huge leap out on the limb of personal opinion, in the end, as an all round boat, the 505 has to be the better of the two.
And now an interesting sub plot - |I see that there is quite a move in Fance to work on 'classic' 505s. Should we invite them to Netley - after all, it's not far from the Channel ports of Poole and portsmouth?
D
David H
Surely they will not need a Ferry?
Uffa Fox Jolly Boat - J9
Mirror - 34359
Hornet - K140
Please see http://www.justgiving.com/160miles for my charity ride to Paris in May
Mirror - 34359
Hornet - K140
Please see http://www.justgiving.com/160miles for my charity ride to Paris in May