FD Class in UK

General chat about boats
Tony L.
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by Tony L. »

Sorry chaps feel like I've tossed a grenade into the room & then exited stage left.

David anytime you want to have a thrash around in my FD give me a shout.

Ta.
Tony
Rupert
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by Rupert »

As you might have noticed, Tony, we can diagree with each other even when saying exactly the same thing!

Keeps us amused...
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Tony L.
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by Tony L. »

Seems like normal communication between helm & crew!!!
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Ed
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by Ed »

So, if not "off with their heads" then at least give them a swingeing slice off the PY!
Paraphrasing Higgins in My Fair Lady: 'My god, I think (s)he's got it'

That is what the CVRDA has been trying to do for nearly 15 years!!

Yes, it needs to be 'hard' and yes it needs to be 'swingeing'. The point, as Rupert says, is that it should be harder to win in a modernised boat than in an original boat. Yes, owners who have just spent a fortune on modernising their classic or vintage boat might not like this, but the CVRDA has always been clear on its intention to do this. We don't force anyone to race with us, but organise our racing to encourage original boats and allow for 'any' boat to race with us, albeit at a possibly hard handicap.

This is a really hard concept to get over to mainstream dinghy sailors, but as you say, without this intention, the whole point of classic racing will be lost to those with deep pockets and the whole thing will die a death.

eib
Ed Bremner
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trebor
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by trebor »

Perhaps a blanket ban on modern rigged classic boats?
They can change back to original rigging for events and classic racing.
Robert
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Ed
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by Ed »

No....or at least I wouldn't want that...

The CVRDA has a wide membership which tries to cater for owners with a wide range of intentions and ambitions for their boats and their racing.

I can really understand the fun in trying to get the very best out of an old hull, to modernise it to my heart's content. I get a complete kick out of that and for me it is the challenge of getting the best out of a boat which is over half the fun.

But there is a very wide range of modernising. Some want to sail with wood spars and cotton sails, but I don't see so many people with galvanized rigging or cotton sheets. I like to modernise, roughly within what was possible in the boat's heyday (not necessary when new!), but still, my Jollyboat has more carbon on its centre-board than my new IC.... (not for reasons of performance, but due to problems with a very old/distorted board-case). I would hate a rule for instance that banned carbon.

So, no, lets not ban anything.

The point is: We use handicaps to sort this stuff out. I can sail my Jollyboat with original 1950s wood mast, or 1970's tin mast. I would expect the handicap to change. If I put on a full raking carbon rig, I would expect the handicap to change again to something 'swingeing'. Experience (as JimC, Rupe and myself would testify) has suggested that if your intention is to try and give the boat sailing with 1950s rig a decent chance (we try to slightly favour the older boats) then you have to really handicap the modern boats 'hard' and 'swingeing'.

eib
Ed Bremner
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Obscured by clouds
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by Obscured by clouds »

I concur, given that I now have to do my sailing on a very reduced income, anything remotely carbon or even new has to be excluded. For me sailing a classic equals 'cheap'. start even a limited arms race and I'm out.
Tony



MR 2404 Julia Dream
N18 276 Sibrwd [ongoing project]
Hirondelle catamaran Kalipse
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Rupert
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by Rupert »

The idea is that the arms race works in reverse.

People are welcome to spend as much as they like. If it is spent on new wooden masts and cotton sails, that will actually make the boat go slower than the tin rig it is replacing, then more power to those people, and handicaps will change in a very nice way.
This also applies to boats using the original kit - old sails/booms/fittings and the like. In the former we have Chris's Merlin No6, in the latter Shoestring, Roger's Hornet.

The middle ground (where the handicap will be, often as not, what the book says, is a boat that has been kept up and together (so, new sails every now and again, nice ropes, fittings that work) but not made modern. I suspect this is the largest catagory we have. In terms of regular boats out there, the Whelan boats (saskia the Firefly and Minim the Minisail) fall into this, as does Peter V's Finn when using the tin mast. Most of the winners of events have come from this catagory, mainly, I think because the people with these boats sail them more regularly than the more fragile versions. However, it does suggest that we need to give even more to the 1st catagory.

Spend the money on go faster gear that didn't exist/wasn't used at the time, and you will get a big handicap cut. We don't have many (any?) regulars in this position, as I think boats converted like this tend towards other events, whether it be the Merlin classic circuit or club racing.

As has also been said on here, at the Nationals, we split into Vintage, Classic and Old, so we would rarely get the extremes racing each other in the results, even if they do on the water. However, at the Opens they do, so getting something as fair as possible is certainly neccessary. However, in the end, good sailing needs to be rewarded, so there is no point in giving a boat with cotton sails and a wood mast 30 extra points - where is the fun in the win if you do that? But at the same time, modern technology mustn't be the way to get to the front of the fleet.

What we can't set in stone is what the PY changes will be, though we do have a guide. Every boat is different, and there are an infinite number of changes that can be made!
Rupert
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trebor
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by trebor »

I agree with all of you, I have rigged the Aquabat to modern Laser standards, I do race this boat every week ( including all winter ).
Their is however the option to retain your original rig ( if you want to ), for classic events, or has Rupert said performance rigging appropriate to the age/era of the boat.
I am also rigging Minisprint to the standard required for a boat built today, ie Max sail, rigging fixed to mast, not deck ( existing kicker bracket is screwed to deck ) etc.
Robert
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roger
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by roger »

Rupert mentions Shoestring. I don't think we have ever completed enough races to determine whether the handicap given works because she keeps breaking. :shock: :oops:
One day we will have repaired the whole boat and we may complete a series of races.
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
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Rupert
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Re: FD Class in UK

Post by Rupert »

You could easily stop her breaking by bunging less old stuff on her...

The fact you don't shows that you are aiming for different things from the boat than I am from mine, say. In the real word, this would mean you would expect to get stuffed out of sight on handicap. In cvrda world, I hope that one day you will find yourself doing well in Shoestring sailing to a handicap that is fair to the boat. Once you manage to finish a race...
Rupert
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