Classic vintage Fireball for sale

[sjgrobbins]

You won’t find another like this I’m sure.

I’m selling my father’s Fireball number 341 built by Peter Bond in about 1965 who went on to form Severn Sailboats. Considering its age it is in immaculate condition (both inside and out). Not restored, just lovingly looked after for almost 50 years. A friend of mine saw her recently and couldn’t believe she was more than about 5 or 6 years old.

Unfortunately the trailer has seen better days but could probably get you home.

During the 60s and 70s she was a regular on Shearwater Lake in Wiltshire with occasional forays to Swanage and Salcombe. Since the 80s has only been out a handful of times.

She has never been left outside when not in use hence the fantastic look of her now. No boat cover supplied as she has never needed one.

Sensible offers please, priority given to someone who can keep her indoors when not in use as that is what she is accustomed to, and necessary if she is to last another 50 years!

I have plenty of photos but trying to scale them down to a size this site will accept is proving difficult to show the quality of the boat. Please email me if you want to see them, don't just write this off as another old and knackered dinghy without seeing her first. I know you will be amazed!

Email: simon.robbins@talktalk.net

[sjgrobbins]

Just had a thought and added some pics to Flickr where I can put some decent sized photos.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/84139002@N ... 789918710/

cheers

[Ed]

Well, it is not often that when someone says a boat is 'immaculate'....it really is...

but in this case I think I agree with you.

Amazed that the inside is so clean and lacking any cobwebs, dust, water-marks etc.

very nice, I hope she finds a really good owner.

cheers

eib

[roger]

not allowed any more boats.

Very nice hope she find a loving home.

[sjgrobbins]

That's a shame as she's currently very close to you. Norton St. Phillip.

[sjgrobbins]

Ok, this has been here for a couple of weeks and no real interest. Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? I have seen adverts for boats in far worse condition getting more interest.

Is it that Fireballs are not popular? Is it that people want something to restore rather than ready to sail? (I can put a few holes in the bottom if you want). Is it because I didn't give a guide price?
or maybe that I would like someone who can keep it indoors and no one these days can afford the space.

Any advice welcome as my dad really wants to to clear his garage.

[roger]

The trouble is many of us already have to many boats and my wife runs a very strict one in one out policy. Also I don't have anywhere to sail a fireball regularly which is a shame because I enjoyed my fireball but it ended up being left upside down in the hedge(luckily it was plastic)

The classic scene is still very small in terms of people wanting wooden boats.

I don't think you are doing anything wrong, the market isn't that big and even less so with higher performance craft. My hornet waiting for refurb cost me more in fuel to collect than I paid for it. Also we are approaching the wrong end of the season and people start to think about dry storage etc.

[JB9]

I think Roger is spot on. I also think that asking for offers makes it more difficult in many ways. Personally, I would suggest a guide price for potential buyers to consider.

[Michael Brigg]

Hi Simon,

First of all is there any chance you might consider taking this boat on yourself and sailing it. There is an active class association for the Fireball, and while your boat may not compete at the top level, there is nothing to stop you from adapting it for use in a modern fleet, by adding a trapeze and spinnaker, which are easily detached if you want to sail it in a "Classic" format.

Also if he sees you sailing it, the Garage might miraculously find space for it again. Why is Dad so keen to "clear" the Garage? Has he acquired a classic car? Is it his way of asking you to take over the mantle of ownership of his pride and joy? The demand for the new owner to dry store the boat suggests to me that someone isn't really ready to let go of this boat.

Lack of dry storage is not really the worst enemy of a boat, but lack of use is. Unused boats often become outdated and so uncompetitive as racing boats, even if maintained with the same care as a piece of antique furniture. To compete at Club level, this boat will need new sails, and possibly upgrading of its fittings as well as a new road trailer. Cost @ £1000. Collection if not local will cost @ £100 minimum. A decent boat cover if it is to live in a boat park (to ensure regular use) up to £200.

It is a lot but for that + the cost of the boat itself (I think £500 (if you are lucky) you will have a classic boat, which will compete well at Club level and be much admired for its unique 3-figure sail number, and all for less than £2000, compared with the brand new price of @ £10,000 or more!

If you really want to sell this boat (and I see you have it on the Fireball site too,) you need to widen your audience, as most "Classic" sailors join this site only AFTER they have acquired a classic boat. Once they have arrived here they, (or their spouse) has already said "Never again!"

Appolloduck, Boatsandoutboards, Y&Y and Fleabay are the most widely used forums for this sort of thing. Incidentally had I been in the position to buy I would have bitten your hand off... But I have a wife, you know...!

So don't tell your buyer how they should look after it, after all once it is sold it is theirs to do with as they wish. Ask for a price that ensures it will be bought by someone who will use it...a lot. ie: Someone who is young and penniless, and possibly in higher education or even unemployed and so has TIME to sail her. And even better has a sailing girlfriend as well. The great thing about a Fireball is that it is manageable (certainly at club level) by a boy / girl crew, or certainly two medium size men.

[whacko!]

Hi Simon,

I have an alternative view but, I'm afraid, not necessarily one that you will want to hear.

FB341 is a superb example of an early Fireball (is she still named Mah Jong by the way?) and should be kept exactly as she is. The key, as you have already identified, is to find the 'right' owner for her. Someone who will respect and enjoy her for what she is. However, she has no real value as such (I paid very little to save FB66 from going on e-bay a few years ago).

Any money spent upgrading her will be wasted as she will never be competitive with later 'classic' Fireballs (which can be picked up fully kitted out for a few hundred pounds) let alone a modern wide-bowed FRP version. A sobering point here is that the first all-FRP wide-bowed Fireball is now 18 years old and good examples can be acquired for around £2,000 so why spend a significant amount upgrading a 50-year old hull that will be uncompetitive from the word go, will need regular maintenance and dry storage for the winter at least?

There is a very limited market for 'classic' Fireballs (coming back to the fact that wide-bowed FRP examples have been around for over a third of the class's history) and even more so for 'vintage' examples such as yours. I am aware of two other examples (1XX sail numbers) that have emerged from long term hibernation during the last three years and neither can be satisfactorily re-homed.

None of this is good news for you, I know. My suggestion would be to ask for only a nominal amount emphasising instead that it is all about finding the 'right' home. I can't guarantee success but it might flush out a suitable purchaser.

Good luck!

Chris Turner
FBs 6, 66 & 14463 ('Cracker' - the very first all FRP wide-bowed FB referred to)
UKFA Archivist

[davidh]

Simon,

Chris Turner's views are well worthy of consideration for if there is anyone who knows the classic F'Ball scene then he is he 'man'!

What this does however is highlight how the classic scene overall has yet to fully develop and mature here in the UK - classic dinghies have yet to start moving up the value scale as they have done in the US (14s go for a fortune there) and France - where they love their classic 505s!

In the last fortnight, a very old, single figure Merlin has re-appeared after spending some 40 years hung in the rafters of a barn. The situation was very similar to yours - the barn needs clearing so something has to be done with the boat. Now we've got some very well informed early (ie, ribbed construction) merlin experts on here (the Merlin equivalent of Chris T) who were trying to help when a well meaning 'friend' of the owner pointed out that there were other equally old boats for sale on the website for big sums of money. Yet it is crazy to associate one with the other. There is another current thread on this side where Johan is busy restoring his Fireball out in SA - you'll find plentiful reference there to the issue of the hours required just to do the 'simple stuff' - sanding down hull and deck to the point that you can get a good quality finish.

I'm probably 'at odds' with a lot of the posts on here as I see the longer term future of the classic dinghy movement in moving up that 'value chain' to he point where boats such as yours attract a more realistic valuation. But, I say this with some feeling; Just recently I was the judge for the Concours d'elegance at the Classic Revival at Bosham. Now I'd thought this to be an easy task but in the end I had to make a long list, then a short list and finally choose the top three (I wanted to award equal 1st place but was told that like the X-Factor that I had to chose just one). The winner was an Enterprise that had been saved from wreck status with a clever, careful, consideration and 'sympathetic' restoration that must have taken a long time and no small expense. A lovely boat, a worthy winner but in monetary terms.....worth very little - when it should be worth a small fortune.

I know this doesn't help with the immediate problem, but it might help in the way you 'look' at the problem!

D

[Michael Brigg]

David,

(and Chris)

I take on board your comments about changes to the hull, and confess I did not in fact know that there was a "wide Bowed" variation in the hull. I presume this might affect the performance of the hull in stronger planning conditions.

In such circumstances a buyer aspiring to the top end of the fleet will not buy this boat for any money.

But for every one of those there are tens or even hundreds, (or even just one or two, it doesn't really matter) who aspire to own a Fireball because that is the class boat sailed at their club.

It is an issue that is exercising club race officers these days. How to improve the line numbers on the week end racing... There is an ever increasing number of "easy maintenance" boats with tempting glossy "high performance" being thrust into the public eye, but for club racing it is the tamer, slower less powerful boats that provide the financial driving power of a clubs membership. Boats you can sail with a novice (such as your new Girlfriend from the city) or wife or Nephew/niece/grandchild without fear of injury or family fallout.

It strikes me that there is something of an obsession in Sailing about having "the fastest boat" and many of us are unwilling to accept that if we were racing the Grand National, we would get a lot further in the race on a Carthorse than on a thoroughbred.

So when it comes to selling a boat such as this one, a basic back of the fleet/mid fleet sailor at "Ordinary club level" must be your target. Actually I think a lot of us in the CVRDA have fallen into this category, whatever our past history might be. We sail in a CVRDA event because our clubs may not cater for the kind of Classic sailing to which we now aspire. Classic Racing places less emphasis on the personal achievement of winning and a greater emphasis on getting the boat on the water. Always remember that the man in a boat, however slow, is still gaining more points in a race and the man watching from the shore is sailing more slowly!

So, it doesn't matter if it is a slow boat if you can find the right buyer. Nobody in Classic racing will scorn a slow boat if they like the look of it.

And as I say, most members on this site buy a boat first (or have a well loved old family boat) and find the site second.

[davidh]

Hi Michael,

I agree with most of what you've said, though your reply might well have been put in the other current thread 'raison d'etre'.

Boats such as this excellent Fireball have their goodpoints - brill points even, yet equally their weaknesses. Is this a boat for club level racing (even the sort of middle club handicap racing) - no....not really - all the more so when you can pick up a reasonable condition Fireball with a 5 digit sail number fairly cheaply that would make a good 'club boat'

No, the home for this boat is firmly within the classic fleet where it can sail against other boats of a similar vintage and genre. Personally, I'd far rather see this boat sailing than yet another proctor IXb merlin, complete with it's carbon rig and mylar sails. We've got the Peter Milne 80th celebrations coming up so I am sure that Classic Fireballs, along with Mirror 14s, Hits, Javelins, Tangos, even a Tunnel scow moth or two (Peter was clever at designing these) so I am sure that there will be events for them to sail at!

where this boat really scores is in it's condition - more and more classic boats are being restored with a clear objective of looking the part as well as sailing well (did you get a chance to look closely at the Enterprise at Bosham) and I think that as the classic scene matures we'll see more of this sort of boat turning out - still capable of fulfilling it's primary purpose - the R in CVRDA - as in 'racing' but at the same time, presented in such a way as to catch the eye of the judges! I'm all for it - it can only make for more and better looking boats!

D

[sjgrobbins]

Wow, so many messages, thanks for that. This is going to have to be a long post to answer everyone.

Roger:
Wives! They just don’t understand do they?

JB9:
I accept that perhaps I should have given a guide price. Michael Brigg suggested £500 which would seem reasonable although I have seen Fireballs in far worse condition on eBay offered for the same or more.

Michael Brigg:
There’s little chance of me taking it on. Whilst I would welcome the opportunity of a sail now and again, I can’t see me sailing week in week out as my father used to do. Furthermore, I don’t even have a garage for my car which is kept on the street, let alone a Fireball. Dad is keen to “clear” his garage because a) he is 79 (80 in January) and can’t imagine using it again (he’s only used it about 20 times in the last 35 years) and b) he wants to convert the garage into a bedroom and whilst mum is happy to accept it in the garage I expect she wouldn't be too keen on having it in bed with her . I don’t demand that a new owner has dry storage but it would be a shame to see a boat so lovingly looked after for so long being left to rot outside in the next few years. I only said priority given to someone who could keep it inside, maybe the wrong words, but I would rather take a hundred quid less from someone who is going to look after her than have the extra money and give it to someone who will wreck it. Like getting a quote from a builder, you don't automatically accept the lowest quote, you go for the one who you think will do the best job. You may get it wrong and employ a cowboy and I appreciate I have no control after it sold.
As far as competitiveness is concerned I realise it wouldn’t compete with a modern Fireball. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of “If I were looking for a boat, would I rather have a brand new shiny Topper (not sure what they cost to be honest but presumably over £500) or a good quality high performance boat. I know what I’d choose, especially if it was for fun not for racing. I didn’t really expect a Fireball expert to buy it.

Wacko!
I’m amazed you knew she was called ‘Mah Jong’ as the name has never been on the boat and although I have advertised it in a number of places I have never mentioned the name. How did you know that?? Not sure why you think I will not want to hear your view. I don’t think I ever gave the impression that the price was the most significant part of the deal. I quite agree that a nominal amount to someone who can give her the right home is the way to go. I never expected anyone to upgrade her to be competitive with modern boats. By the way, although completely irrelevant my father’s mate used to sail the boat before one of yours No. 65.

David h:
Thanks for your comments. I have come to learn that the classic scene has yet to develop, as you say, but I never thought I would have so much trouble. I have a mate at work and I virtually offered to give it to him for nothing but he still wasn’t sure. I appreciate the time and effort involved with some of these boats but to be honest this one is almost “like new” which I appreciate may seem difficult to believe.

Michael Brigg: (second post)
I had realised there were wider bowed versions around now, but I never expected anyone interested in the pinnacle of performance to be interested in this boat anyway. I agree there seems to be an obsession with speed and performance. It reminds me of Formula 1 cars where this year’s car with this year’s tyres is 0.1 seconds a lap quicker! A 1960’s F1 car couldn’t compete with a new one but it’s still a damn sight faster and more exciting than my Vauxhall Corsa! Sure it can be sailed by anyone, even novices. I used to sail it with my dad from the age of about 5 or 6, out on the trapeze (well at least standing on the side of the boat holding on to the trapeze wire in one hand and the jib sheet in the other. The harness wouldn’t fit me!) no life jacket, off the coast at Swanage. Health and safety, pah!
I really can’t believe a slightly wider bow can make it more than about 5-10% faster if that. To call it a slow boat seems wrong somehow.

David h: (second post)
Can't say much about that except agree.


Anyway, thanks everyone for your input.

[Pat]

Good luck with it - try targeting people at clubs like Bristol Corinthian (Cheddar) where there's indoor all year storage at the club.
No, I won't take it even though it's local - our dozen boats are already too many and Shearwater's no good for them now the trees have grown up!