Buying advice, please....

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realnutter
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Buying advice, please....

Post by realnutter » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:42 pm

I've seen this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121738671543? ... EBIDX%3AIT

and it kind of appeals...

Built in '74 according to the N12 database.... and I think it's really pretty, tho the ad doesn't show the condition of the sails....

Could I be getting myself into a world of pain?
Matt

Int Moth K2992

Stephen Hawkins
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by Stephen Hawkins » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:34 am

I would go and see it. Look for any signs of rot where the varnish has lifted,and wet wood, any lifting paint, fine cracks going with the grain, and any signs of delamination of the ply, especially in the floor and where it has been twisted and curved during its construction. At the very least you will need to varnish it - although that does not necessarily mean a full stripdown at this stage. Far better to make good and see if you like her, without spending too much on her.

On the face of it, this boat is very 'retrievable'.

Pricewise, I have paid far less for better and far more for worse. I would consider putting in an offer you are comfortable with and see where you get.

Butler Boats are a boat manufacturing firm, but I think the price point is not unreasonable as a start point for negotiation.

Gooseneck should be easy to get a hold of, spare masts in the boat park of your club, or ebay.

Cheers

Steve
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trebor
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by trebor » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:38 am

You are buying from a boat yard so I should think they should know what is required for this boat. I think someone on minisail forum knows this boatyard.
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sam mason
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by sam mason » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:00 am

I have known Dave Butler for years and you wont meet a more helpful or honest guy anywhere. Give him a call and he will tell you all he can.
Sam

roger
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by roger » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:31 am

What Sam said, Butler boats have a good reputation
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hall_g
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by hall_g » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:50 pm

I bought an N12 recently for similar money. Mine is in better condition than this one, but without the combi. It's absolutely fantastic fun - a bit like a scaled-down Merlin Rocket - and as "cheap as chips". The N12 Association people are extremely helpful too, and there is even a series of races for "four planker" N12s. If you buy the boat, but don't want the combi, please let me know as I will buy it off you for mine! Good luck, Gavin.

realnutter
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by realnutter » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:29 pm

So I made a 500 mile round trip today to go and have a look... Not too many horrors...

1:
Image

Funny, overly long trailer, front mast support missing... I can bodge a replacement to get it home...

2:
Image

This had me confused, until I realised the boom is the wrong way round!

3:
Image

Hole punched in front bulkhead... presumably done by the mast foot... Either fit a hatch here, or a piece of ply over the top to strengthen, and prevent repetition?

4:
Image

Shroud tensioners, but what's the small black cam cleat on the forward (right) side of the rib for?

5:
Image

Muscle box present and correct... slight delamination of mast cheeks... not too worrying..

6:
Image

Minor horror... transom flaps siliconed shut! Why?

7:
Image

Bigger issue... Port deck edge broken off.. not structural.. seller suggested trimming both sides back...

8:
Image

Biggest worry... last 6 feet of the starboard chine.. this isn't just the paint coming off, it's delamination.. I didn't poke too far, so don't know how far in it goes... if it's just a few mm, would a length of glass tape epoxied on suffice to fix it?


Otherwise, it's pretty good... a good clean and a coat of varnish / paint would do wonders... sails are reasonable.. 1 Mylar and one Dacron main... one jib... Most rigging present, and lead back to the thwart... clew outhaul a bit basic!

Any thoughts most welcome!!!

Matt
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JimC
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by JimC » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:53 pm

> Minor horror... transom flaps siliconed shut! Why?

Probably heavier sailor. Silicone the transom flaps and they won't leak, but you can push them out with a toe if you d need them, then renew the silicone the next dry day.

> Delamination

or a split chine? both awkward, if you can really get glue in it may be OK. Take a good look at the inside too. Consider really fine glass available from model shops rather than yacht chandler heavy duty glass tape.

realnutter
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by realnutter » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:19 pm

This boat has a tank across the stern...

It has a tunnel through it which means there's no way you'd kick the flaps open!

It also means I could only inspect part of the inside of the chine... and it looked fine!
Matt

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TimD
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by TimD » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:32 pm

Hi Matt, I've dealt with split chines on a wooden yacht (23ft David Thomas racer).

I caught them early so just let the boat dry out, then ground out about 75mm either side of the chine. Cleaned the area well and then wetted out with epoxy before laying on and rolling in kevlar tape. I then filled and faired before painting - you didn't know the job had been done.

I also similarly 'strapped' the hull with kevlar around the shroud take off points. (I thought that stresses from both the rig and pounding into waves may have caused the problem) The weight was negligible in terms of a yacht. The repair also lasted through horrendous weather and seas.

Doubt you'll need Kevlar but hopefully gives you some ideas.

Mikey
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by Mikey » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:19 am

Only 2 boats built to this design - says it all. Stern tanks on this vintage can be a problem - take out and put in bags. Would look out for a China Doll or Cheshire Cat if you really want a 4 planker.

realnutter
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by realnutter » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:34 am

Mikey wrote:Only 2 boats built to this design -
And no history on the other one.. this boat is probably unique!

Matt
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roger
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by roger » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:22 pm

realnutter wrote:
Mikey wrote:Only 2 boats built to this design -
And no history on the other one.. this boat is probably unique!

Matt
There is probably a reason for that.

The split chine would be my biggest worry, if the glue is failing you may end up doing the whole boat.
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realnutter
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by realnutter » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:00 pm

roger wrote:The split chine would be my biggest worry, if the glue is failing you may end up doing the whole boat.
From the inside there was no evidence of the chine splitting... it just looked like the outermost ply coming off....

But, yes.. taping the whole hull would be time-consuming....
Matt

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TimD
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Re: Buying advice, please....

Post by TimD » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:12 pm

Mikey wrote:Only 2 boats built to this design - says it all. Stern tanks on this vintage can be a problem - take out and put in bags. Would look out for a China Doll or Cheshire Cat if you really want a 4 planker.
I thought the China Doll was a traditional 7 planker? Wasn't the Paper Dart the 4 plank development? (I remember the Darts very well from my early sailing days at the Royal Harwich at Woolverstone). From memory they where built by a local, David East . The 12s at one time at Woolverstone almost looked like a one design class!

Given the Darts were well built there's sure to be some still around (although they are, of course, glass - although there was one wooden one I remember). They didn't like being T+boned by Wayfarers at speed though!

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