It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

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TheGuvnah
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by TheGuvnah » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:13 am

Thanks for chipping in everybody, this is all food for thought and much appreciated.
Rupert wrote:How brave are you? ...
Excellent question: answer = Pretty brave and not easily intimidated by the extent of the works required here. Remorseless with it too and left to my own devices I'd have a camp bed and a kettle next to the boat and that's that, set myself a three month turnaround and crack on until six months later it's done. The reality is single bloke, two kids = not possible.
JimC wrote:Well, to me that looks basically like a 100% restoration, the sort that leaves the boat with three lumps of original timber and the rest new.
Agreed, probably down to the level of dismantling the framing joint by joint to re-glue it all.
JimC wrote:These cost, of course, typically more than building an all new hull. So what is there about this boat that justifies that sort of expenditure?
Another excellent question: OK expressed as percentages here goes...

1) Romanticism, nostalgia, pity at the prospect of seeing it crunched and associated abstracts account for maybe 20%

2) Potential end worth/investment - 5-10% (bwaaaaahahahahaha!, in truth not even a consideration here but looking at where I'm starting it's current value "as a boat" is about as residual as it's possible to get.)

3) Educational value to the boys (and me come to that) - 10%

4) Sense of achievement and pride of owner/custodianship at seeing these two slip into the water and float! ( :shock: the boats not the boys) - 20%

5) I have to put a number on the inestimable sense of achievement and pride at seeing my two boys yarding them away under sail - gotta be 20% (combine scores with point 1)

6) Need a mast badly. The mast on Flypast is peppered with overlapping rows of pop rivets (gag) and Boat of Garter has two masts in fine condition. Whole lot better than mine anyway. Flypast's rudder has had a few deep chunks bitten out of it and BofG has one of those whizzbang pierced aluminium racing rudder stocks (requiring extensive corrosion removal) but the foil, pintles and its 1" inox tube tiller are fine. They'd look totally out of place to my eye but as stop gaps they'd do a job. Steering compass on the c/board case (again to get the boys familiar with the basics of nav) saves me £30 buying one. Suspect the c/board to be in the same good condition from what I could see, pivot was nice and tight anyway. So as a donor of working parts it has some value - 10 to 15%.

7) If the worst comes to the worst and it really is beyond salvage then there are the few hardwood mouldings and components which can be saved/stored as future replacements for F/past. impossible to say whether they're actually still servicable at this stage. I'm thinking gunwale/inwale timbers, thwart, knees et al. In which case her demise will not be in vain and a little of 643 will live on at least. value = 10%

8) Personal therapy: can't deny the past few years have been a waking nightmare centered principally around the NHS's parlous 'care' of my Wife and the requirement to deal with a mental health system in functional collapse headed up by a reckless gaggle of over-promoted @r$e covering lackwits in full denial of their manifold and repetetive incompetence. Takes it out of you I can tell you. It was beginning to have serious effects on me and thus I needed to back off, hand the whole catastrophic mess to the lawyers to sort out. That gave me space to mentally breath and fill my mind with something more worthwhile than writing endless $****y letters to apathetic directors of nursing, dysfunctional Care Quality Commissioners, Parliamentary O/men with 18mth backlogs etc.

These boats have if nothing else restored my mood at a point when I was emotionally 'burnt out' and my energy needed to be urgently redirected :twisted: :twisted: from the ongoing rolling farce to the boys and something concrete (wooden in this case).
Also there are no 'externalities' here; the end result will be in my hands and mine alone rather than the capricious hands of disinterested public servants, basically if anything goes wrong it'll be MY fault. Tools don't give endless excuses and prevarications, they don't b/s you and the finished product is only ever as good as the skill and diligence one brings to the bench. I like that condition of things, shame it doesn't apply more widely. Gonna give that a score of 15% at least.

(OK the sums are all wrong but all the above percentages are subject to much variability depending on proximity to open water, balminess of the weather, urgency of the need to get the boys and I out of this damned flat :D )

9) I have the space to house it and a two year window (before the demolition crew arrives to flatten the factory) in which to at least stabilise the hull to the state where she can be safely trailed to a new home.

10) Love the smell of fresh planed timber in the morning. = 3%
SoggyBadger wrote:The thing is with an Osprey is that unlike say a GP14 there isn't much of a frame to re-skin so since the hull is in such poor condition you're basically building a new boat. So a thumbs down from me I'm afraid :(
With you, fair point well made. it's something I have noticed myself, they're pretty skeletal inside. That's why the first job will/would/might be to get a jig around her ASAP then nudge it into compliance by taking comparative dimensions off Flypast. Easy when you say it fast but it would need much forethought in working out the sequence of work.
The detached deck panels can be pushed back down and still land precisely where yhey came from so at this point I'd say the hull is still in shape.
Michael Brigg wrote:
A reminder of the vessel in question...
Guvnah,!!

I love this post. You have said so much that is what CVRDA is about.

Renovate and restore, not bodge and break.

Do not start a project unless you can properly finish it or hand it over to one that can.

All you need is love... and perhaps a large fortune.
In the course of corresponding with the owner I did suggest that the best hope for BofG would be to find a yard or college or wooden boat building firm who want a project boat but that might be years before a recipient stepped up. This boat has run out of time, it's now or never and if she's in dry storage she won't get any worse.

Might have to go back anyway as I left me specs on the foredeck when we were covering her back over! :roll:
Last edited by TheGuvnah on Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by Rupert » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:50 am

Well, you made it to well over 100%, so go for it!
Rupert

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TheGuvnah
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by TheGuvnah » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:43 am

Rupert wrote:Well, you made it to well over 100%, so go for it!
Went for it...

Offer has gone in based on what I paid for Flypast. She cost me £150 with her old Brit Seagull o/board and a hugely troublesome trailer to deal with before even starting on the boat. Upshot though is that I now have a trailer capable of shifting a boat this size. The boys are back in school tomorrow and the flag drops. I'm putting a month on getting the Enterprise painted and out of the w/shop which will free up space for BofG.

If the offer is accepted then shifting her will be undertaken with much care and trepidation. I won't be winching her down on a pair of ratchet straps there'll be at least 8 of 'em and bales of carpet padding. I'd also be taking down some additional baulks of 4x4 timber to cut on site in order to place additional in situ support under the hull.

First she'd have to be coaxed with kid gloves off her rotted launch trolley and onto mine, thence onto my road base. No way will I trust its existing trailer. That will be the subject of a second collection run. In fact instinct is telling me to bring back the hull only and leave the spars for collection when I return for the trailer. Aerodynamically speaking I'm rather wary of the strain those leggy cantilevered masts (there's two of them don't forget) might transfer into the hull at A road speeds or at any speed come to that. Given the damage to the (flimsy ply) transom and the general skimpiness of the stern tank construction I'm loath to lash the mast feet in there. One good pothole and... :twisted:
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by TheGuvnah » Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:53 pm

£150 rejected. Hmmm... OK... think think think.

In their email the owner seems keen to recover the £500 it 'owes' them. I can see where they're coming from, sure, who wouldn't want to but I don't think they'll be recovering it from my thinning wallet. Reminds me again of that Rover P5B Coupe of mine. Bought for a bag o' sand, spent another £1500 on the endless little finagling stuff the prior owners hadn't bothered with and then the bonnet catch crapped out at 60mph effectively writing off the whole roof, firewall, bonnet, screen smashed creased fornt doors. Nightmare! Sold it to a banger racer for £200 and it might even have been less. My tough luck and I certainly wasn't expecting banger dude to pick up the costs of my slack inspection regime. I should have checked it but didn't, my bad, I lose, much heartbreak and profanity unleashed and an expensive lesson learned.

So where does this potential pile of Jenga top out?

Owners estimation of its value is based on its potential and the belief that it "...has mostly a good solid body."

It just hasn't. Every glue joint is suspect, all the ply is roached and a big question mark hangs over the frame. As an example of "a classic Osprey" its only value now is in the number carved in the timber, and possibly the frames if intact. If Charlie could snap the ply like a cracker then it's a boat that doesn't actually have a hull worth the name. Well certainly not one into which I would entrust our lives in open water. No chance.

I believe the owner has contacted Osprey Sailing in their search for info. I guess they would have imparted the mythos attached to the design and talked up the potentialities as is their legitimate brief but I don't think the owner or partner has sufficient sailing experience or familiarity with the actualities of wooden boat survey or restoration therefore I doubt O.S. could have been appraised of the true condition of this example upon which to base a reasonable guesstimation of its actual value "as it sits".

Owner has stated that they'd prefer to torch it rather than see it go for such an amount (they'd have to dry out the hog and keel first though) or chuck it back on Ebay for another cycle which given that it attracted no interest whatsoever on its last two transits might be the cheaper purchasing option. Depends if a reserve is placed on it. My guess is that an Ebay buyer would be buying to part it out and put the hull out of its misery with a last goodnight kiss from the fork lift. :(
At £250 it starts to exceed my estimation of the parts value especially once you've factored in the uplift and transportation costs. They should consider themselves lucky that BofG isn't a f/glass hull in which case they'd be looking at stumping up £150 enviro-fee just to get it into civic landfill!
The only thing I have immediate need of is a suitable replacement mast but they drift by on the Bay on a fairly regular basis so all of a sudden... do I reeeeelly need the potential ball-ache that will undoubtedly accompany this boat, well what remains of it?
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by JimC » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:48 pm

Run, don't walk. Buying a boat from people who know little about boats and have a exaggerated idea of worth can never end well.

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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by dronskiuk » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:22 pm

Can't help feeling there are more deserving and less troublesome recipients of your skills out there...I'll lend you some running spikes!

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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by Rupert » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:34 pm

Offer them less if they come back and try and accept your offer.

As said above, there are plenty of boats out there, ospreys included, that are crying out for love and care.
Rupert

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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by TheGuvnah » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:25 pm

JimC wrote:Run, don't walk. Buying a boat from people who know little about boats and have a exaggerated idea of worth can never end well.
True, their faith in this boat seems impenetrable. Perhaps I should present the case differently along the lines of a reality check scenario, for instance by asking... "Given what I've told you about the actual integrity of what remains of this 'hull' would you now confidently stake YOUR LIFE and that of your partner by putting to sea in it no matter how much epoxy and varnish got slapped on it?"
dronskiuk wrote:Can't help feeling there are more deserving and less troublesome recipients of your skills out there...
Rupert wrote:As said above, there are plenty of boats out there, ospreys included, that are crying out for love and care.
Goddammit they've just stood on my one good pair of rose tinted spectacles! the Guv rubs his blinking eyes and realises - they're only bloody right you know! That's the bullet point I'd completely lost sight of, obscured as it was by the seductive notion of the boys owning a matching pair of them so a pint behind the bar for these blokes please barkeep.
There are others offering equally rewarding ownership: of course there are, every week a new flotilla drifts by for one's perusal, inviting skepticism, derision, admiration or undiluted lust in varying proportion.
Run, don't walk... I'll lend you some running spikes!
You've done enough right there but thanks all the same Dronski
Rupert wrote:Offer them less if they come back and try and accept your offer.
:lol: :lol: You Sir are a player, I like that.

Gents, thanks for the jaw jaw ref Boat of Garter, looks like Up Helly Aa awaits its imminent arrival. Shame but looks like it's curtains for this deal and I'm out. Might make an offer for one of the masts though. Mehh! who knows? but it'll be interesting to see it come through the Bay again.

t.t.f.n.

Guv
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by Graham T » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:12 pm

As someone who now owns 3 Ospreys, a full set of building templates and jigs and some plans and loves them all can I say you have made a very wise decision. There are plenty of better Ospreys out there for far less than the costs in materials that this boat would need. My mark 3 Claridge built Osprey with a proven race record, many sets of sails, full trailing covers, modern combi trailer etc. etc. only cost £1500 and I was racing it the day after collecting it. (she may be for sale for the same sort of money next spring). Number 55 cost me a bottle of champagne but needs re gluing all over. I have just paid £5000 for a modern Mk4 with full carbon rig, harken fitout, more sails than I could ever use, combi, covers etc which needs no work whatsoever.

Graham
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Osprey 1340, Osprey 1245, Osprey 55, Miracle 1358, Laser heap, ancient Mirror kit half assembled, Project Miracle in need of decks........
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by Graham T » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:28 pm

In fact if you want a project Osprey I think I may ne able to help with that. I know of one needing some work to the decks and gunwhales but otherwise sound..... Send me a pm if you are interested.
Graham T
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by TheGuvnah » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:52 am

Graham T wrote:As someone who now owns 3 Ospreys...
Ooh, OK, eyes front and centre...
Graham T wrote:a full set of building templates and jigs and some plans and loves them ...
You now have my full attention...
Graham T wrote:...all can I say you have made a very wise decision.
I think so, it's pretty much rubber-ducked: the only thing that might have tipped the scales convincingly would have been a folder full of its provenance and history plus a trail of silverware with its name engraved around it... plus the silverware thrown in to sweeten the deal and pay for the fasteners.
Graham T wrote:There are plenty of better Ospreys out there for far less than the costs in materials that this boat would need.
Uh-huh, agreed, I rough guessed it at circa £1000 too with the greater percentage of that needing to be up front.
Graham T wrote:My mark 3 Claridge built Osprey with a proven race record, many sets of sails, full trailing covers, modern combi trailer etc. etc. only cost £1500 and I was racing it the day after collecting it.
Is it considered bad form on this forum to openly drool like a sedated mastiff?
Graham T wrote:(she may be for sale for the same sort of money next spring).
Oh aye?
Graham T wrote:Number 55 cost me a bottle of champagne but needs re gluing all over.
Y' see? That's what I mean, a bit of history and as for provenance I would have asked for the cork back, scribbled the date of purchase on it and chucked it in with the docs. Kept the champoo corks from our engagement and wedding. Soppy get! :oops:
Graham T wrote: I have just paid £5000 for a modern Mk4 with full carbon rig, harken fitout, more sails than I could ever use, combi, covers etc which needs no work whatsoever.

Graham
OK look this isn't helping with the drooling thing, and neither is this...
Graham T wrote:In fact if you want a project Osprey I think I may ne able to help with that. I know of one needing some work to the decks and gunwhales but otherwise sound..... Send me a pm if you are interested.
You now have my undivided attention...

Now this is interesting. As mentioned before I could squeeze another boat in alongside without much conflict or congestion, in fact it's a bloody big space if I properly move, stack or skip the detritus left by previous inhabitants of the space, I'd much prefer to get this chuffing Enterprise done, dusted and out though before introducing a distraction from the job in hand. Yes I've said a month from when the boys went back to school but that was before I had to apply four coats of Coo-Vars Yacht & Seaplane Varnish to the rebuilt rudder stock plus the tiller and foil. It goes on beautifully and you can see how easy it will be to get a real depth to the finish but just as nostalgic is the drying time to a working hardness which is looking to be about 3wks to a month! And this was during the recent hot spell AND with a small fan heater circulating warm air round them. Still took a week in that heat before I could safely handle them without leaving prints in the thicker bits at angles and edges.

Whereabouts is the boat the mo, around N'castle?

will P.M.

Thanks Graham
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by Pat » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:43 am

But if you get them an Osprey each, have they got the crews for when they want to race each other?
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by TheGuvnah » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:38 pm

Pat wrote:But if you get them an Osprey each, have they got the crews for when they want to race each other?
Aha, another excellent question. Answer = no

But that's the idea of a sailing club isn't it? Well I hope it is anyway. Have to say Draycote are pretty serious about their racing so there is a big pool of experienced crew milling about the place. I'm sure an A4 poster on the notice board might attract some attention. The eldest has a an adventurous friend his age who is the only one who was keen to jump in a boat but she's the same age and probably lighter so won't contribute much to either trim or trapeze. None of my mates seem to be putting their hands up for a dunking, all a'feared o' the oggin! the bunch of lightweights. Looks like we'd better get good enough to be able to rig them for single handing them. There, problem solved :roll: otherwise it's one at a time.
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by STEVEB » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:44 am

Hi,
There would be a certain logic about combining it with this free hull and putting a halfway decent boat together!
https://www.gumtree.com/p/freebies/free ... 1189937835
Steve :D
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Re: It's not an Enterprise... but what is it??

Post by PeterV » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:58 pm

But is that centreboard case the one out of the bottom of this hull or another?
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